Newer Forester or newer Passat wagon

[humanistic]

I love the Forester. My wife and I both have them. My 99L is getting up in miles and it is time to do some maintenance. I need a timing belt and while in there, figured I would also get a water pump. Unfortunately, I seriously suspect that I also need a head gasket (and probably another 02 sensor (already put one in).

 

After I began totalling the cost, I decided maybe it was time for a trade-in for a newer Forester. As I started looking around, I also noticed the Passat wagon. It is also all wheel drive (which is critical since I live on the side of a mountain and use a dirt road to get on and off of it). I was wondering if it can stand the pounding that the Forester takes daily without the nickel and dime problems that my Forester has.

 

They (the Passat) are a little more cash-wise, but are not substantially more.

 

I've looked at a couple of '01 and '02 Foresters and really like the sunroofs! This time, I would probably go with an S versus an L and would prefer a stick versus and automatic (my wife has a stick and it is really...um...peppy). Whatever I get, it will probably go to the wife and I'll get her Forester, so I need something kinda nice as I like to take good care of her because she's usually hauling the kids around.

 

Any comments, statements or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[hklaine]

I was under the impression that the Passat was not available in 5-sp with AWD, and that the Forester was not available in 5-sp with a sunroof. Or maybe it was just that the sunroof was not available in the Turbo Forester. I could be wrong, just something to look into.

 

A friend and I recently did some car shopping, going between Subaru and VW looking at the same stuff. She ended up buying from VW. To be completely honest I wasn't all that impressed with the build of the new Forester, not to mention the fact that the clutch in the demo car was garbage.

 

-Heikki

[limitedslip]

The April issue of Consumer Reports has review of all of the new cars, and might be worth a look. They are very high on the Forester, not sure how they rated the Passat.

[rweddy]

Well a few years a go, pre 96 I would have told you hands down a Subaru is way better build quality, reliability, design, etc......

 

 

But in today world I would say that there is very little difference between the two vehicles in terms or reliability. VW/Audi has been making AWD for a long time. The Passat is a much nicer vehicle all around then the forester, but I believe it is also more $$$$.

[northguy]

One thing to consider are the costs down the road. I know what the costs to maintain a Subaru are (approximately), but don't know what the Passat will run. I do know that if you lose your keys to a Passat, it'll set you back $250 for a replacement. How's that for starters?

[Hondasucks]

Make sure it is a GERMAN BUILT Passat. The Mexican built VWs are GARBAGE as far as the electrical systems are concerned (Not that VWs have always had good electrical systems, but the Mexican ones are worse).. Ask JonOfScio, he works at a Volkswagen dealer.

[Setright]

Just laying quality, price, and those things on the shelf:

 

 

The Passat is boring to drive.

 

 

That would be the clincher for me :-)

[Soobadooba]

Well a few years a go, pre 96 I would have told you hands down a Subaru is way better build quality, reliability, design, etc......

 

 

 

But in today world I would say that there is very little difference between the two vehicles in terms or reliability. VW/Audi has been making AWD for a long time. The Passat is a much nicer vehicle all around then the forester, but I believe it is also more $$$$.

What do you find nicer about the Passat?

-Louis-

'04 Forester XT 5spd

'91 Loyale 4wd 5spd Wagon

[Philbiker]

If you're considering the Passat Wagon, be sure to take a good look at the Legacy wagon as well. IMO it's a lot more car for the buck, especially if you get one of the 2004s. With the 2005 redesign, dealers and Subaru of America are looking to unload Legacies and the incentives are sensational. AWD on a Passat Wagon is going to mean a price tag into the 30s.

 

When I was recently shopping I fully intended to buy a Forester, but after test driving I liked the Legacy a lot better.

What do you find nicer about the Passat?

My wife has a Passat, it has a very upscale interior, particularly compared to the Forester. It really feels substantial and is very attractive. Good reliability so far, but it's only 2 yrs/32K miles so far.

[JaapH]

Here in Europe the AWD Passat (called 4 motion) has an option for an extra lift kit, underside protection and sturdier suspension. Just like the Outback.

 

However a Passat here is cheaper than the Forrester and much cheaper than the Outback. But be sure to get an European one

[Philbiker]

And in Europe you can buy a Skoda Octavia as well if you like. Hatchback TDI Passat that gets about 50mpg. I rented one of those last year on my honeymoon - I wish we could have taken it home.

[rweddy]

What do you find nicer about the Passat?

-Louis-

'04 Forester XT 5spd

'91 Loyale 4wd 5spd Wagon

Fit, Finish, motor, ect. I think overall it is much more upscale vehicle. No taking away from the Forester but they are pretty basic transportation compared to the Passat.

[Philbiker]

Fit, Finish, motor, ect. I think overall it is much more upscale vehicle. No taking away from the Forester but they are pretty basic transportation compared to the Passat.

Totally agreed. I have a Legacy (was originally going to buy a Forester till I test drove the Legacy) and my wife has a Passat. As far as fit and finish and comfort is concerned, the Legacy compares much better with the Passat than the Forester does. However, my wife's Passat is a 5-speed so it's much more fun to drive.

[99obw]

From a reliability standpoint, if you look at the ratings charts, VW is at or near the very bottom, with Subaru near the middle. Of course the top is typically Lexus, Infinity, Honda, Toyota, etc.

[Philbiker]

Which is why my wife's Passat is going on the chopping block soon.

 

Suabrus according to Consumer Reports are right up there with the best in the business......

 

In every category except "engine".... we know why that is.

[mfassett]

I have had an '03 Subaru Legacy "L, Special Edition" wagon for one year now. When I was shopping, I thought I would buy a Forester. I also spent a lot of time driving Passats, because that was the closest competitor.

 

The truth was, we really liked the Passat... a lot. The interior was very nice, well thought out. Definitely more "upscale" then the Legacy. After doing research on reliability, even though the Passat had free 2 years maintenance, we decided it was too risky, since we keep our cars forever. Also, our mechanic who we've had for many many years only works on Subaru, Honda, and Toyota. Yea, I know, a bit silly, but so be it.

 

The Forester was a nice vehicle... but it seemed light and tippy compared with the Legacy wagon. The Outback, though nice, didn't handle very well. The Legacy Wagon handled well, though not as well as the Passat.

 

Another consideration is cost. You can get a Legacy wagon for right around $20k. That won't get you into a new Passat at all. You really need to spend more like $25k to get a Passat that compares feature-wise with a Legacy (though, again, even the base Passat has a better interior than the Legacy). I don't think you can get an AWD Passat for under $25k... at least.

 

I thought about going up to a "GT" model, but the upgrade wasn't worth the extra cost to me. My local dealer did offer a $1k option for leather, installed by a local shop (workmanship was very good, I saw a few examples). But we decided against it.

 

Anyway, that's my story... I'm a happy Legacy L SE owner.

 

Oh, one more thing... once you get close to $30k, you're starting to get into Volvo v70 territory... IMO, that's the vehicle I really wanted, MUCH better than the Passat. I just didn't want to spend that much.

[SuperRallyRoo]

We had a 1996 Vw Vr6 passat wagon for 2 years with the 5spd manual, it was a pile of garbage. We didn't trust the dealers at all they lied out there rump roast. They put the steering wheel on wrong when they fixed the ignition switch recall and told us "Oh well maybe u didn't notice that b4 and our specialists say your alignment is off!" The brakes in the back cost like 900$ to replace and a oil plug popped out of one of the heads and lost all the oil... So we had the clutch replaced while we where at it that was a 1800$ job for a $2.00 #*$&ing oil plug!The ABS warning light would always come on and go off and would have no abs and then abs a few days later. Before the ignition system was fixed the lights would randomly go off cause the key would fall into the off position. The interior was NICE and it was very very quick for a big wagon. Faster then a wrx wagon... Had various engine mods which made it not pass emissions for the dude who bought it from us for 8000$ All I can say is despite all its quirks I do REALLY miss that car. It got about 18mpg in the city and 25 on the highway. (drove hard) Good luck... Oh and the handling!!! It had 17" rims with low profile tires and that thing handled like a small italian sports car. Tons of grip except in the snow.

ALSO! What the last guy just said about the volvo V70. I worked for volvo those are the NICEST cars out there... Wow I'm not sure if the new volvo V70R is out yet I think it is. But they have the titanium edition volvo V70 that is just Sweet! The R's have 300hp going to an AWD system and the handling is awesome.

[humanistic]

I appreciate all of the responses. Very informative.

 

After looking around a bit, I am beginning to find it difficult to identify the VWs in my price range. One of the responses warned that this may be challenging. So, since many of you compared the Legacy to the Passat (instead of the Forester) I thought I would solicit opinions on a newer (than '99) Legacy versus the '01 or '02 Forester. As a recap, I live on the side of a mountain here in Virginia and I travel a dirt road to get on and off of my property.

 

Thoughts?

[99obw]

AFAIK the '99 was the last year of the 2.2 in the legacy. If I was going to buy a subaru right now it would be one of those. Unfortunately I couldn't find one within 100 miles so I bought a Cherokee, which are a dime a dozen.

 

My only reservation with the legacy is the ground clearance. I suspect it might high-center itself on my dirt road. In the winter during heavy snowfall the plow only goes by once or twice a day, and the snow can build to 12-18". The end of my driveway can easily have 3' of densely packed snow when I get home from work. The outback handles it fine.

[LameRandomName]

Be advised that VW doesn't have a good track record in terms of customer service.

 

If you don't live near a VW dealership that has a genuine reputation for REALLY taking care of their customers, then do NOT buy a VW.

[BlueSoob]

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

If you already have a good place to take the Subarus - a trusted mechanic and such, stick with what ya know. The Passat is a very boring car - nice but..zzzzzzzz. I haven't seen many VWs who don't venture to the shop frequently and know their mechanic's first and last name as well as their birthday and anniversary.

I think that between a Legacy or Passat, the Legacy will handle the hill better. Or between the Legacy and the Forester.. I think thats more of just a handling choice.

[howards11]

Based on what I read recently in The Wall Street Journal about VW as a company in general, I'd stick with Subaru. Please see the next post for the article.

 

A friend had to replace a headlight on his daughter's Beatle. To get to the headlight required removing the battery which then requires the computer to be reset. Needless to say this headlight required a trip to the stealer at the cost of nearly $100. Enough said ?

 

~Howard

[howards11]

Here is the article from the Wall Street Journal:

 

As VW Tries to Sell Pricier Cars, Everyman Image Holds It Back

The New Golf Is Full of Extras, But They Come at a Cost;

'Multilink' Axles Anyone?

Mr. Dobiasch Wants a BMW

 

By NEAL E. BOUDETTE

Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

May 13, 2004; Page A1

 

Suzanne Kay has owned five VW Golfs since the mid-1980s. After checking out the latest version, she won't be buying a sixth.

 

One of the world's best-selling cars, which now costs more than $24,000 fully equipped, isn't worth the money, says Ms. Kay. The 39-year-old customer-relations employee at a bank in Brussels says she might switch to the Mini, made by BMW AG, or maybe the tiny Smart roadster from DaimlerChryslerAG's Mercedes division. "The new Golf is really an expensive small car now," she says.

 

Ms. Kay's potential defection says a lot about what's plaguing Volkswagen AG, the world's fourth-largest car maker and the latest to stumble into the emergency room. The Golf, VW's profit workhorse, used to be an easy choice for drivers wanting an everyday runaround. As part of a push to turn itself into a maker of high-priced, premium cars, VW loaded the new Golf with expensive extras, assuming loyal customers would trade up. But the Golf's September launch, a critical moment for the company, has been a major disappointment.

 

VW, based in Wolfsburg, Germany, produced 18% fewer Golfs during last year's fourth quarter than planned. Sales in the first quarter, amid criticism from the automotive press, were "significantly less" than expected, the company said. VW's first-quarter net income plunged 87%. In April, VW shut down production for four days, a rare situation for any new model.

 

The Golf's troubles are a warning for the auto industry. As car makers try to combat ruinous price competition, some are adding fancy features to popular models to justify raising prices. But as VW's experience shows, it's not easy to persuade buyers to pay extra for what they've long considered affordable brands. In fact, one of VW's greatest assets -- its appealing everyman image -- is now one of the problems holding it back.

 

VW says it's not backing off its strategy to produce premium and luxury vehicles. Hans Dieter Poetsch, VW's chief financial officer, says in an interview that the Golf's slow start was caused by overall weakness in the European car market and says the company is "comfortable" with the Golf's price premium of about 8% over competing models.

 

"The market is willing to pay more for the additional quality" of a Golf, Mr. Poetsch says.

 

The new Golf was supposed to carry VW through a rough patch. Other parts of its business, including high-end, luxury cars, are struggling. VW is losing money in the U.S. and once-hefty profits in China are declining amid tougher competition. VW's net income fell 58% last year to $1.34 billion compared with $3.12 billion the previous year.

 

Volkswagen was one of the auto industry's hottest players in the booming late 1990s when it recaptured the affection of affluent young Americans weaned on the company's legendary Beetle and VW Bus. It marketed cars including the Passat and Jetta to wealthy urbanites through catchy advertising such as its "Drivers Wanted" campaign.

 

Because of VW's reputation for reliability and styling, it could charge up to 15% more than the competition, causing rivals to grumble about the "VW premium." Meanwhile, VW cut costs by re-using parts for many different models. It uses the guts of a Golf to build cars sold under the Audi, Skoda and Seat labels.

 

Volkswagen's latest Golf model.

Emboldened by its success, VW decided to move the company away from its "people's car" roots and develop boutique brands, including Bentley, Bugatti and Lamborghini. At the same time, it hoped to squeeze more profit out of its VW models by boosting their technological sophistication and price. VW assumed consumers would continue to pay a premium for the satisfaction of owning a Volkswagen.

 

Bentley sales were up sharply in the first quarter and a new minivan is selling well. But not much else has gone right. Most of the company's most expensive luxury models, including VW's Phaeton, a $70,000 luxury sedan, have sold so badly that VW wrote off $719 million in development expenses in the fourth quarter.

 

VW also overestimated how far it could stretch prices for everyday cars. Manfred Dobiasch, a printing systems technician from Hamburg who owns a 1998 Golf, says he's willing to pay more than $24,000 for a new car, just not a Golf. At that price, he'd rather have the car he's always wanted: A BMW 3 Series, which starts at $28,000. "That would be the dream," says Mr. Dobiasch.

 

Undaunted, Bernd Pischetsrieder, VW's chief executive, is pushing another upscale VW model, code-named C1. Amid the company's stumbles, he's facing resistance from labor representatives on VW's supervisory board, the equivalent of a U.S. board of directors. (Under German law, half of a company's board seats must be filled by employee representatives.)

 

Last year, Klaus Volkert, the supervisory board's senior employee representative, told Mr. Pischetsrieder that the luxury drive was distracting VW from its bread-and-butter business, people familiar with the matter say. In early 2004, Mr. Volkert and other labor representatives went back to Mr. Pischetsrieder and said they opposed proceeding with the C1 in VW's current financial situation and said they would vote against the project if it was brought up for approval, people familiar with the conversation say.

 

The labor representatives worry developing another pricey car will leave VW with too little money to keep its mainstream vehicles competitive. In view of the Phaeton's disastrous sales, "we are not as optimistic as we were before" about the C1's prospects, says one board member who participated in the discussions. The millions that would be needed to produce the C1 could be used to beef up the VW brand with new models. "We live off of mass market cars. Our cars must be affordable, for normal people."

 

The company expects to proceed with the C-1, although no decision has been made, a VW spokesman says. A spokeswoman for Mr. Volkert says he wouldn't discuss the specifics of conversations with Mr. Pischetsrieder. She said Mr. Volkert thinks Volkswagen needs to make both luxury and affordable cars. Through a spokesman, Mr. Pischetsrieder declined to be interviewed.

 

As VW pushed ahead with its luxury strategy, it counted on the Golf to keep the engines running. Launched in 1974, the Golf was a pioneer of small-car design. It so overwhelmed competitors that the industry dubbed the category the "Golf class." Germans who came of age in the 1990s, when the car hit its peak of popularity, are known as "Generation Golf."

 

Analysts who follow VW estimate the car generates almost half the company's profit. The third generation inspired VW's turnaround in the early 1990s and the fourth, launched in 1997, helped power a surge that gave VW the industry's No. 4 position after General Motors Corp., Toyota Motor Corp. and Ford Motor Co.

 

In 2000, that model's peak year, the VW produced 942,000 Golfs. Most manufacturers would be pleased with sales of 200,000 for one model. To date, VW has sold more than 22 million Golfs. That means the Golf has surpassed the Beetle.

 

When VW began developing the new Golf in 2000, it stuck to its traditional formula and designed the car's basic structure to be shared among other models, including the Audi A3. But the Audi brand, which competes with BMW and Mercedes-Benz, needed a sporty ride and luxury touches. VW figured it could satisfy the needs of the Audi A3 and also lend an upscale feel to the Golf.

 

As a result, a strategy designed to cut costs ended up making the Golf a pricier car to manufacture. For the rear axle, VW went with a complex "multilink" design more commonly found in a BMW or Mercedes that holds the road more effectively at high speeds.

 

To reduce weight and make the Golf peppier, VW engineers used pricey aluminum instead of steel for engine supports. They added an electric motor on the steering column to give more precise handling.

 

One thing VW didn't much change: The Golf's external styling. Designers rounded corners and tinkered with the headlights, but little else. "A Golf has to look like a Golf," Mr. Pischetsrieder told reporters last August.

 

In Germany, the Golf's arrival caused a sensation. The city of Wolfsburg, where VW has its headquarters, officially changed its name for one month to Golfsburg. Dozens of magazines splashed the Golf on their covers. Unveiling the car amid lasers and smoke at the Frankfurt auto show, Mr. Pischetsrieder said it "marks an evolutionary leap in design and technology." VW announced plans to build 135,000 Golfs in the fourth quarter and sell 600,000 in 2004. The car is currently available only in Europe. VW will start selling it in the U.S. in 2005. Golf sales in the U.S. are currently slumping as a result of the exchange rate and VW's meager incentives.

 

At the time of the launch, Mr. Pischetsrieder sniffed at the price war raging in the U.S. and vowed VW wouldn't be goaded into offering rebates. "Just to make market share and sell volume is not an objective we strive for," he told reporters at one event in "Golfsburg."

 

The new Golf was launched amid a much tougher market than its predecessors. In the 1990s, car makers were shielded from full competition by a complicated formula that limited the number of cars Japanese companies could sell in Western Europe. The rules capped Toyota at about 3% market share in most European Union countries.

 

The EU and Japan dropped the quotas in 1998. In the first quarter of this year, Toyota's share of the western European passenger car market hit 5.5%, according to the European Association of Automobile Manufacturers. Meanwhile, many drivers have shifted from buying hatchbacks like the Golf to other vehicles, such as compact minivans and roadsters. VW's reputation for quality has also slipped.

 

A bare-bones, two-door Golf can be bought for $18,515, the same as the preceding model. But the car's price jumps quickly when consumers add even the most basic extras. A four-door version costs an additional $1,200, double the extra price in the previous version. To buy a car with power windows and a midsize four-cylinder engine, among other features, the Golf's sticker price tops $24,000. Meanwhile, rivals have slightly lowered prices of their competing models.

 

Initial reviews by car magazines in Europe gave the Golf high marks, but by December it was clear the accolades weren't translating into sales. In the fourth quarter, VW produced 110,000 cars, 18% below its target.

 

In January, VW's archrival -- GM's Opel division -- began marketing its redesigned competitor to the Golf, the Astra. GM used a steel engine cradle, which is cheaper than aluminum. GM made the Astra's standard rear axle mimic the performance of the Golf's expensive multilink system by tinkering with the car's electronic controls.

 

Engineers for GM's Opel, who have studied disassembled versions of both cars, say in interviews the Astra costs "significantly less" to produce. An Astra with 1.6 liter gasoline engine starts at $20,675. That's $4,410 less than a comparably powered Golf.

 

A VW spokesman acknowledged the Golf's rear axle is a "sophisticated" component but declined to comment the cost of producing the car.

 

With Golf sales languishing only six months after its launch, VW resorted to a tactic it had long criticized -- sales incentives. In February, VW offered the Golf with free air conditioning, a $1,520 value, and quietly told dealers they could discount up to $1,200. To prevent unsold cars piling up, VW shut down Golf production for four days during Easter.

 

Mr. Poetsch, VW's finance chief, says the company offered free air conditioning to celebrate the Golf's 30th anniversary, not as a sales incentive. The factory shutdown, he says, stemmed from slow sales across the board in Europe, not the Golf in particular. On discounting at dealerships, a VW spokesman said VW doesn't set final prices and dealers are free to lower their margin to win sales.

 

When Thorsten Schumacher decided to trade in his Audi A4, the 30-year-old machinery technician test drove the new Golf and the new Astra. Although he initially leaned toward the Golf, he picked the Astra for its ride and snazzy design. "The Golf just looks like the old one," he says. In April, "auto motor und sport," Germany's most influential car magazine, also gave the Astra a higher rating than the Golf, citing its superior handling and price.

 

In Naumburg, a city 95 miles south of Berlin, six Golfs with free air conditioning are sitting unsold in the lot of Autohaus Possoegel, a VW/Audi dealer. Across town at Autohaus Burgenland, the Astras are fast disappearing. "The four out back are sold," says Johan Tanger, a salesman, jerking a thumb over his shoulder. A spokesman for Opel says the company is trying to increase production to meet demand.

--

[rweddy]

Based on what I read recently in The Wall Street Journal about VW as a company in general, I'd stick with Subaru. Please see the next post for the article.

And having a motor with a major design flaw in the head gasket and doing nothing about it for a decade is customer service?

 

 

I hate to burst everyone bubble here but Subaru’s are not the dead reliable vehicles they were in the 70s,80s and early 90s. Which is very sad to me.

 

 

As far as boring or not that is a personal preference. Subaru had better get there stuff together before Honda or Toyota come out with an AWD wagon.

[howards11]

And having a motor with a major design flaw in the head gasket and doing nothing about it for a decade is customer service?

 

 

 

I hate to burst everyone bubble here but Subaru’s are not the dead reliable vehicles they were in the 70s,80s and early 90s. Which is very sad to me.

 

 

 

As far as boring or not that is a personal preference. Subaru had better get there stuff together before Honda or Toyota come out with an AWD wagon.

 

Way too much of the VW stuff is assembled in Mexico and the new Beatle is assembled in Brazil. Windows fall out, electrical systems fail, etc. NO THANKS. I'll take my chances on a Subie.

Take a look at the latest Consumer Reports ratings. Who has a better rating? SUBARU.

 

~Howard