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Help! Emergency! 91 Legacy Stranded (Still)


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77 replies to this topic

#26 subieman

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 11:34 PM

My keyway broke on my crank gear. Timing went so far off the motor would not run anymore. I replaced everything including the fuel pump, plugs, coil.... then I popped the timing cover..

:boohoo:

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#27 Tiny Clark

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 12:01 AM

Wow, it amazes me that a steel keyway would break like that...

or did they use aluminum to help reduce total curb weight? LMAO

#28 Legacy777

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 08:54 AM

Lorry,

Try to keep all replies in one thread so others can read the background info too.

#29 Lorryb

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 08:51 AM

I give up......... I have tried replacing the alternator, the coils, the ignition wires, the igniter and the main ignition relay. Still no results. There is fuel and spark. What more should I need? I also popped one of the timing covers and the timing belt appears to be sound (although I saw the previous post showing a broken key, I hope that isn't my problem) So yesterday I did the only thing left, I put it on a flatbed and took it to the dealer. :cornfuzz:

#30 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 10:30 AM

I think you tried as hard as anyone would expect and I would've given up sooner I think (given the distance you had to drive to the vehicle).

PLEASE let us know what they find - don't leave us hanging OK?

Carl
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#31 Lorryb

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 11:07 PM

Got the diagnosis from the dealer today. Not good news. Apparently the timing belt has slipped a couple of notches and there is significant oil leaking around it. Probably the seal for the oil pump. They seem to think the oil pump may need to be replaced as well. Also they hinted that there may be damage to the crank and that if I have to change the oil pump the crank pulley may be difficult to remove. Hmmm. also the tensioner may be shot as well as perhaps the bearings on the cam pulleys? I think a lot of this may be speculation if they haven't pulled all the timing belt covers. They felt that running the it with the belt off a tooth or two may have damaged the crank? Does that make sense? Judging from the way it failed ie I drove it twice while missing and running rough for a total of about 60 miles, then it wouldn't start. I would suspect it jumped a tooth, I drove it, then when it jumped another tooth it wouldn't start. The only thing I can think of that might have caused this is a faulty tensioner, I checked the tensioner when I replaced the belt and thought it was allright at that time. The check had something to do with compressing the tensioner and timing its recovery if I remember correctly. So I'm not really sure what I should do. I have a donor car with an engine that runs well although it has 100k km more on it than my engine. Should I just scavenge the appropriate pieces or just swap the whole thing out. I just can't decide. I'll keep y'all posted, no doubt I'll have lots of questions as I go along.

#32 Tiny Clark

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 01:06 AM

If it isn't an interference motor, then all internal parts should be O.K.

I can't even see a crank suffering damage with an interference engine. Maybe valves and pistons, but not the crank, unless its the keyway. I know many people who have had belts break and engine damage on other cars, but no crank problems.

I would have them put the belt back on correctly, with a new tensioner, new seals, and see if it lights up. Or you could do it yourself again.

I hate dealership "mechanics" anyway. Not a crack team of professionals, but a professional team on crack!

#33 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 06:28 AM

I think you should GO to the dealership and have then SHOW you why they think the crank is bad. I agree that sounds a little weird unless its something like that keyway issue.

Unless you heard noises (not rough running - actual metal on metal sounds) then the valves should be OK. If this is a SOHC engine, from what I've read, the valves won't hit each other anyway.

If you have the skills, time ,inclination, fix it yourself. I certainly wouldn't have this dealership do the work UNLESS they can 'buy' you confidence after some 'face time'..

good luck

Carl
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(thanx for the update!)

#34 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 06:35 AM

HEY! I just remembered reading posts about the harmonic balancer not getting enough torque when its reinstalled, something about the books all being wrong. Do a search for that thread and see it it may have applied to your engine.

just a heads up


Carl
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#35 Legacy777

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 07:54 AM

I'd say unless the crank was rounded out by the pulley because it wasn't torqued down enough......the crank should be fine. I don't know how they can tell any of the stuff they've said without pulling that pulley off.

At most I'd suggest replacing the oil pump, timing belt & tensioner.....and if you haven't been in there to replace the crank & cam seals, do that too.

#36 Lorryb

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 12:12 PM

I read in a post that the crank pulley is a reverse thread? Is that true on an EJ22 as well? (I don't wanna spend too much time turning it the wrong way!)

#37 Legacy777

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 12:18 PM

nope, it's normal thread

#38 Tolerance02

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 12:41 PM

Legacy '91 is a no interference engine. As you say there is spark and feul, place a new T belt and tensioner, check all the bearings (don't forget to check the waterpump) and replace the oil leacking seals and your engine will run as fine as it was before.

Urban.

#39 Lorryb

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 01:33 PM

Thanks Josh, I did the T belt a while back and thought that if it was reverse thread I would have remembered it. This is a quote on the Chilton's or Haynes' thread I started:

Originally posted by theotherskip
i've used a bunch of haynes and chiltons manuals in the past, and they all seem to be very hit or miss. it depends on how close the car they disassembled to write the book is to yours. when you get the "blanket" books that cover many years and many engines and model revisions, they are often very bad.

i usually lean more towards haynes, and the subaru one is pretty good, though i don't know for an earlier legacy. i've know chiltons to have very wrong info more than a few times. a friend was trying everything to remove a crank bolt. chilton's didn't mention the fact that the bolt was reverse thread :banghead: !!


Maybe the 2.5 engine is reverse thread?

#40 Tolerance02

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 01:39 PM

T belts from Legacy are very reliable. Slipping over is mostly caused by the rubber gaskets that are between the central part of the belt cover and the engine. Because of oil leak and/or cleaning the engine with degreaser the rubber gasket is swelling and pops out from between the cover, comes between belt and pullys and so the belt slips over.

Removing the crank pullys mostly give no problem, surtainly not now as in an other post you said you replaced the T belt recently.

Urban.

#41 Lorryb

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 11:13 AM

Latest news on the dead Legacy. When I picked up my Subie from the dealer they had obviously pulled the crank pulley and taken off the timing cover. Oh oh, the timing cover has been worn/eaten away apparently by either the back side of the crank pulley or something caught in it. The Dealer said I "might" have trouble removing the crank pulley. Hmmm I wonder why they said that? They apparently got it off, and then put it back on! Unfortuneatly when I picked up the car the mechanic was gone for the long weekend, so I'll have to wait til next week to question him. Meanwhile I'm gonna try and pull the crank pulley, the belt etc. and have a closer look.

#42 Lorryb

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Posted 30 August 2003 - 05:59 PM

UPDATE:
So here's what I found: Some eejit must not have tightened the crank pulley bolt sufficiently when they changed the T belt! Oops, mea culpa. I distinctly remember using the torque wrench so perhaps its not all my fault, I read somewhere on USMB that the given torque setting is wrong and should be 110-130 ft#. I don't remember what I torqued it too but not enough obviously. It wasn't a complete write-off thank goodness. The crank pulley got loose and wobbly, ate the timing cover and I can only assume caused the T belt to jump a couple of teeth. Does this seem logical, I can't find any other reason for the belt to skip. Good news is that the keyway in the crank is still fine, the key is hooped and the keyway in the crank pulley is a little iffy. I have a new key and pulley from my donor car though. now in the process of refitting everything.... Lorry

#43 subieman

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 12:55 AM

Wow you were lucky it did not eat away the keyway on the crank. I had to replace my engine because of that. I only torque to 60lbs, guess thats why mine failed. Live and learn I guess. :banghead: Good luck with the repairs! :D

#44 Lorryb

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 07:24 PM

UPdate: I guess the keyway wasn't "fine" after all, I had trouble getting the gear on so I had to clean up the nose of the crank a bit. the edges of the keyway were a bit rough. A little emery cloth took care of it. I torqued the cam sprockets to 50 ft.lb. and the oil pump mounting bolts to 10 ft.lb. _ Is that right? 10 ft.lb seems a little soft to me. BTW when I pulled the oil pump to replace the o-ring, guess what I found? Yep, one of the screws on the back plate had worked itself very loose! Good thing I checked! Good thing I read USMB! What a great message board! Hats off to the guys that make it happen! I had to reset the engine timing as my cams were off due to the belt skipping. As per the Endwrench and some other relate posts on USMB I set the cam timing marks to the top, matching the marks on the back timing covers and I set the crank/oil pump gear to 12 o'clock high. Does any body know if there is a mark somewhere to match the mark on the crank/oil pump gear? At least one article says 12 o'clock high but I was wondering if there is something else that will indicate the crank is in the proper position. Tomorrow the belt goes on and I hope to fire it up.... Lorry

#45 Tolerance02

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 11:38 AM

12 o' clock is OK. There is a notch in the edge of the oil pump houseng just under te crank sensor. But you don't need them. Your new belt should have 3 stripes, one for each pully mark. The stripe for the crank gear are dots, the other two are full stripes in yellow color. Place the belt in the right direction (clockwise when facing the engine from the front, there are arrows) and make the stripes match with the marks on each pully. I always use small vise grips to keep them in place on the campullys. Once the belt is mounted and the tensioner is released turn the crankshaft to his point (marks at 12 o'clock). Both camshaft marks must be correct now. There may be a small difference but never a whole tooth. If you turn the crankshaft 2 revs now the stripes on the belt are no more in the right position, this is normal, but the 3 pully marks mustbe on there marks.

Urban.

#46 Lorryb

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Posted 01 September 2003 - 06:46 PM

:mad: more troubles! had trouble getting the t-belt on so it would line up. Anybody else have trouble getting all 3 marks lined up? It would seem that the passenger side cam sprocket needs to be just slightly past the timing mark, not much just a wee bit. Does that sound right? Then it happened..... before I mounted the belt I put the bolt holding the adjuster idler in, or tried to! Couldn't get it started so I got my handy little picks out and poked around in the bolthole. Oh oh, metal filings coming out! Looks like it was crossthreaded! Cleaned it up and finally got the bolt started with my fingers, ran it in about 4 turns and then it stopped, thinking I must have it started ok and there's just a bit of cuttings left inside, I ran it in with a socket, it went in nicely and withdrew nicely. Then.... got the belt on and tried to install adjuster idler. Again bitch of a time starting but finally seemed to thread allright, ran it in with a socket to almost tight, then put the torque wrench on it. 32 ft.lb is the spec I believe, somewhere before 32, the dreaded slippage became apparent. After 5 minutes of meaningful language I backed the bolt out, yep threads chock full of cuttings. What a pain in the rump roast, what a poor way of designing an adjusting idler! With the lateral pressure on it from the T-belt a cross thread is just dying to happen, especially in nice soft cast aluminum. Oh well what's another day or two without the old Subie. Its off to the auto parts store tomorrow for a Heli-coil kit. Anybody else have experience with Heli- coils thread repairs? Hopefully someplace in the nearest city will have a metric Heli-coil kit. :boohoo:

#47 camosuba

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Posted 02 September 2003 - 06:17 AM

As long as there is enough metal around the hole to take the helicoil it should be better than new :D most of the subaru bolts are 1.25mm pitch but if you cant get the right one you could substitute any bolt that fits in the hole as you now have a fresh slate so to speak :wave:

#48 Lorryb

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 01:04 PM

Update: I just finished installing the Heli-coil, spendy little items ($70cdn for the kit) but I guess that's cheaper/easier than swapping out the block!. As it turned out, I didn't have to predrill the hole, the threads were trashed enough that I could tap straight in (at least for the 1st half, the back half was obviously into good threads as the tap was harder to put in). It receives the bolt very nicely now, hopefully the advertisements are true and I can torque the idler down to 32 ft.lb. I'll be putting it all back together tonight. Who knows maybe even fire it up? I can see a light at the end of the tunnel........hopefully it isn't a train!
Lorry

#49 Lorryb

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 11:28 PM

:banghead: The light at the end of the tunnel was a train :madder: Put it all back together, checked all the torques, etc. gave the key at twist........rrrr, rrrr, rrr. Go figure! Looks like I'll have to tear it down again! Sounds suspiciously like the timing is not set right:confused: When I pulled the belt in the first place, the timing was out at least two teeth. Then at some point when the belt was off, I turned the crank somewhat, maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn. When setting it back up I followed the procedures. First I rotated the crank to set the mark on the oil pump drive gear to match the timing mark on the oil pump housing, then I turned each cam pulley so the marks were at 12 o'clock. I then installed the belt and the two lines for the cams and the dotted line for the crank all lined up with their respective timing marks. Then as a precaution I manually rotated the crank until the marks came back up again (note that when the timing marks came back up the lines on the belt no longer lined up with the marks). So far so good. Then I put it all back together and tried to start it. NO SUCH LUCK. Anybody got ANY idea what's happening here? Can the crank be out 180 degrees or something? I must admit that when putting the belt on the lines did not line up "exactly" with the timing marks, however, a whole tooth change either way would have put them out of line even more! I'm despondent.

#50 ShawnW

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 11:59 PM

Maybe theres a board member near there that can come help or go on his/her own to take a look and check things for you instead of driving 8 hours.

Im really curious as to what the tech at the dealership was indicating was wrong to your wife.

Shawn




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