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Let's revisit the ignition wiring problem...


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17 replies to this topic

#1 Ever Victorious

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 09:29 PM

OK... so the friend that is buying Freebie off of me to help pay for the XT came over, and we were working on it some more.

Took the radiator out and flushed it, then moved the car out and flushed the cooling system. Looks like it may have just been a case that all of the coolant that WAS in the system had broken down. Not much left but rust and water.

Put those back together and put actual coolant in it, and it seems to be better (though didn't run it long enough to do a full heat-up).

Well, then we went to work on wiring for the new Ig switch.

I followed the directions given to me by several of you guys, and I'm running into a problem... I can figure out how to get the "Off" and "Acc" correctly wired, but every combination I have tried has "Start" and "On" switched (starter engages when key is switched to "On" position).

Any ideas on how to correct this?

She should be joining the forums tonight to ask about this, and another question I'm about to post.

#2 Havoc_66

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:07 PM

Yep, here I is. Better question how do you fix the original factory ignition?

#3 Ever Victorious

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:09 PM

Yep, here I is. Better question how do you fix the original factory ignition?


Well, the suggestion was get another key made... at least if the key does not readily unlock the doors. Which it does, so the key isn't really worn.

Then the solution is to replace the ig lock cylinder, and have it re-keyed. Edrach says this is about $100 and doesn't last very long. Which you can see is why I chose the aftermarket ig switch...

#4 Ever Victorious

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 06:35 PM

bump... anyone?

#5 edrach

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 09:24 PM

Then the solution is to replace the ig lock cylinder, and have it re-keyed. Edrach says this is about $100 and doesn't last very long.

Having just done this on my new (new to me) '84 Brat, the cost for lock cylinder and matching key came to $133.17. Spendy, but worth it in my mind. I don't believe I said anything about this fix not lasting very long. The new lock cylinder has metal innards throughout and not the plastic stops of the original which fail after 15 to 20 years of use; the new lock cylinder should last forever now. If anyone wants the address of the locksmith that did the work, it's Lockworks, 16510 Redmond Way, Redmond, WA 98052; 800-413-9085. Ask for Steve who is the Brat expert now.

#6 zyewdall

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 10:25 PM

On wiring issue:

If you've got accessories working, you should have two wires left, and two terminals right? If you have a 12V hot wire, you can jump each of the two wires, and determine which one goes to the starter solenoid. Then, with a multimeter, you should be able to determine which of the two terminals on the ig switch only has power when in the start position.

Don't know if that's what you already tried, but that's the way I did it on mine with a generic ignition switch

#7 Havoc_66

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:11 AM

Ok, we have a $10 shucks ignition. It works and turns the engine over, but the on and the start positions seem to be synonomous. The "idiot lights" do come on when we turn the key, but the car also turns over. There seems to be no accessory position. I have the opinion that if the car starts, then it works, but we have no acc option, meaning the car is on or it's not. There is no steering lock. Is there any way to fix this? Are we wiring it wrong, or are we gonna have to live with this for ten bucks?

#8 Ever Victorious

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:17 AM

Ok, we have a $10 shucks ignition. It works and turns the engine over, but the on and the start positions seem to be synonomous. The "idiot lights" do come on when we turn the key, but the car also turns over. There seems to be no accessory position. I have the opinion that if the car starts, then it works, but we have no acc option, meaning the car is on or it's not. There is no steering lock. Is there any way to fix this? Are we wiring it wrong, or are we gonna have to live with this for ten bucks?


It's actually a little worse than that... whenever the car is in the "on" position, it acts as if it is in the "start" position, meaning the STARTER MOTOR IS CONSTANTLY ON! even when the car is running!

This problem did not occur with the stock ignition switch, but the lock cylinder was so worn that it just got stuck in the "on" position with no way to turn it off or start it.

Mo... what ed is saying is that a new lock cylinder can be made for the stock ignition switch (with the steering lock bolt) and keyed for $133. You can go that way if you want, it's certain to work.

But we should address the cooling and richness issues first.

#9 Havoc_66

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:24 AM

It's actually a little worse than that... whenever the car is in the "on" position, it acts as if it is in the "start" position, meaning the STARTER MOTOR IS CONSTANTLY ON! even when the car is running!

This problem did not occur with the stock ignition switch, but the lock cylinder was so worn that it just got stuck in the "on" position with no way to turn it off or start it.

Mo... what ed is saying is that a new lock cylinder can be made for the stock ignition switch (with the steering lock bolt) and keyed for $133. You can go that way if you want, it's certain to work.

But we should address the cooling and richness issues first.


Definately, I think that fan is our problem with the overheating issue. I didn't know the starter was staying on, You never had it on that long. My fault.

But with the fan, I'm assuming it's 12v, we should find out for sure. I'd rather have it run constantly than not at all. We should investigate those "mystery wires" from the fan. I'll get a new sensor. Is there any way to get rid of the California emissions s**t?

#10 Ever Victorious

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:29 AM

Definately, I think that fan is our problem with the overheating issue. I didn't know the starter was staying on, You never had it on that long. My fault.

But with the fan, I'm assuming it's 12v, we should find out for sure. I'd rather have it run constantly than not at all. We should investigate those "mystery wires" from the fan. I'll get a new sensor. Is there any way to get rid of the California emissions s**t?


The california emissions are going to be your saving grace when you do have to take it to emissions. I doubt it would pass right at the moment with how much unburned fuel its spewing out.

#11 Havoc_66

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:40 AM

The california emissions are going to be your saving grace when you do have to take it to emissions. I doubt it would pass right at the moment with how much unburned fuel its spewing out.


Yeah, but those sensors get costly in the long run. I need it for now, but later?

#12 Ever Victorious

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:42 AM

Yeah, but those sensors get costly in the long run. I need it for now, but later?


Uhm... weber carb is a start.. I don't know if the sensors can simply be disabled, or if the ECU needs to be removed... and how it will affect the car.

#13 Havoc_66

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:48 AM

Eh, then it can stay. California sucks.

#14 Scoobywagon

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:16 AM

Ok....here we go...

Your EA71 is carbed, so if its running rich, its time to R&R the carb. Switching to a weber will not likely help you pass emissions, though it IS likely to do better than what you have. Since the car sat for so long, I'd be willing to bet that all the little rubber bits in the carb have long since rotted away, probably losing the float, also. Either take it in and have it rebuilt, or go get another one. I'm currently having htis problem with my 83 EA81 and I've found that its just going to be less expensive for me to switch over to SPFI.

As for the ignition switch, well, you've got a generic 2-pole, right? If all it has is 2 poles, then either it doesn't have a start position or it doesn't have an Acc position. Based on the described behaviour, I'll bet it doesn't have a start position. Instead, it is intended for use with a starter button. How to wire this up? Well, run power from the ignition pole on your switch to pin 85 on a Bosch relay ($2-5). Run from pin 86 to a pushbutton switch and from there to ground. This creates the control circuit for your relay which will actually operate the starter. Now, you need power to crank the starter, Jumper from pin 85 to pin 30. You will want to make sure that you dead-end pin 87a, as the relays constant power will run to 87a when the relay is in its "rest" position. Now, run from pin 87 to your starter. What will happen at this point is that you will turn you ignition switch to "On". The relay will see power, but no ground until you press the button. The button provides ground to the relay which closes, routing power to the starter. When you let off the starter button, the relay loses ground, returns to its rest position, and the starter stops turning. IF you plan on having any sensitive electronics, such as a computer, wired to the car, you may want to run a diode to jumper between pins 85 and 86. The diode will function as a drain for the electrical spike that occurs when you collapse a magnetic field.

#15 Havoc_66

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:30 AM

....wow. Um, weber it is! No, it's a 4 pole. It has start and acc. Along with batt and on and starter. So I guess 5 poles all together. It's got me confused.

#16 Cougar

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 10:43 AM

If the starter is on with the rest of the accessories then there may be a short somewhere down the line causing this. To see if this is true I would do the following test.

Remove the BATT. lead from the switch and then remove the lead that goes to the starter. Then briefly touch the two leads together to make sure the starter works. Then remove the RUN or ON lead and touch that lead to the BATT lead. The cars accessories systems should come on but not the starter. If the starter runs also then there is a short to the solenoid somewhere. If things are ok you should be able to figure out which lead goes back to the correct switch positions and see if things work ok. It the starter still turns on in the RUN position then there is a problem with the switch.

#17 Ever Victorious

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 12:11 PM

If the starter is on with the rest of the accessories then there may be a short somewhere down the line causing this. To see if this is true I would do the following test.

Remove the BATT. lead from the switch and then remove the lead that goes to the starter. Then briefly touch the two leads together to make sure the starter works. Then remove the RUN or ON lead and touch that lead to the BATT lead. The cars accessories systems should come on but not the starter. If the starter runs also then there is a short to the solenoid somewhere. If things are ok you should be able to figure out which lead goes back to the correct switch positions and see if things work ok. It the starter still turns on in the RUN position then there is a problem with the switch.


Must be a problem in the switch then. I've tried every iteration of how the wires can go, and this is the best I can do. But the starter and ignition circuit work correctly with the OEM start module, as long as the ig lock cylinder is removed (because that's physically preventing the turning of the ignition).

#18 zyewdall

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 12:31 PM

Must be a problem in the switch then. I've tried every iteration of how the wires can go, and this is the best I can do. But the starter and ignition circuit work correctly with the OEM start module, as long as the ig lock cylinder is removed (because that's physically preventing the turning of the ignition).


Have you checked the voltage at the various outputs of the switch to see if it is turning both the start and run outputs on at the same time? Sounds as if if is shorted inside the switch so they aren't really separate despite having separate output terminals.

I'd just put in a momentary pushbutton connected to the start wire and don't have the ignition switch control the starter at all.




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