Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

New to this forum. Designing kit cars I plan to offer for sale within 3 to 4 years


  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 03 February 2006 - 10:54 AM

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum.

Because I like to get along with others and I am misunderstood - more times then not - in online chats/forums. I wanted to try an help others get to know me better. And also so I have a better chance to get to know you.

I am not mean nor a rude person! However my spelling down right stinks. I use run on sentences and poor grammer. Most of the time my hands work faster then my brain - LOL so I use quick and simple words - that may not always be the best fit - for what I am trying to say.

So with that said and out of the way - PLEASE do not jump to conclusions - if some thing I post comes across mean, rude, or you are not fully sure of its meaning - Feel free to ask or pm me. As I rather have peace then people ASSUMING and possibly taking sides.

Thanks for your time in reading this and I look forward to chatting here.

NOW on to the meat of this thread: :grin:
Any Subaru tranny techs.... out there?? I am building kit cars - to be sold within 3 to 4 years. I have worked out a few engine/trans combos for mid and rear engine set ups and I like to offer one option with a subaru drivetrain. = need - looking for help there..... I have time and I am willing to spend the $$$$ to have stuff remachined to make it work - if at all possible. I like to offer more options then just the ones I have and AWD would be nice. :cool:

So hopefully this is the right place for a newbieeeeeee to post a thread wanting to talk about Rear and Mid-engine set ups and talk over the inter workings of subaru's trans?

So Any subaru trans techs out there?.... or anyone who has already done this?

Thanks again, Sincerely, Tony

#2 northguy

northguy

    O.C.A.L. Life Member

  • Members
  • 4,352 posts
  • Chugiak, AK

Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:15 AM

Use the search function to explore the mods already done with mating engines and transmissions in Subbies. There are a bunch of options already available. And welcome to the board.

#3 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 03 February 2006 - 03:46 PM

Thanks so much for the warm welcome!

I have been doing searches - on yahoo/google search engine and the last few days now in forums. :) This is my 3rd Subaru Forum in two days. Plus the week is shot - with no positive out come so far..... not coming up with the combo, of engine and trans, I am looking for. NO DISRESPECT intended to anyone here or on any other forum!!! But most DIYers - like my self back in the days - look for the cheaper way out, more times then not, when trying out an idea, liek this, for project car. Like the saying goes - if money grew on trees - we all be rich. I sure know I not. LOL I'm like the next guy. Have to count those pennies..

Put because I want to produce these kits cars for sale on the open market - I like to find a good quality fix - that can be mass-produced for future production...

See I already have the following engine and trans combos:

1) a V6 mounted like in a Fiero

2) a 4cyl Diesel mounted two different ways.

3) a mid-engine 6cyl

4) NEED TO WORK OUT - Subaru Rear mounted engine with AWD

I almost forgot to add - I even called a tranny shop I sent my customers to for many years. But no luck there either - as I felt the owner did not want to be bothered. One of the techs did however give me two names of manufactures of transmissions, transaxles, differenails(sp) and so forth. But again - no luck so far - lots of online searching - reading many web sites and info = week shot!! LOL

And because I use to work on subarus, many many years ago I might add - lol - I like the subaru line of AWD very much. Plus over the years since I was a mechanic a lot of things have changed and they are only getting better! So I guess that is why I have my heart set on a rear mounted subaru FI engine AWD combo; as one of the options - I like to offer my future customers. Plus if would allow for a lower profile of the trunk - LOL - read part of the kit car design.

So any Subaru tranny techs around???

#4 Hodaka Rider

Hodaka Rider

    Original BC Soobnut

  • Members
  • 1,577 posts
  • Nelson, BC (Canada)

Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:02 PM

OK, I think I missed something. I only read through your posts twice, but I'm not sure I know exactly what information you are looking for.
Are you looking to find a way of using a Subaru engine and trans in a mid or rear config? As far as I know, it will not work in a rear config (the Subaru R&P cannot be flipped), but a mid config is doable - in 2WD only.
Your only options are different transmissions with adaptors. There are already adaptors out there for using the Subaru EJ series engines with VW trannys, so why not go that route? That way you can do either mid or rear engine, and if you use a Syncro donor, you can have all wheel drive.

#5 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:58 PM

Hi Hodaka Rider, FYI I was looking to mount the subaru engine in the rear - not mid-engine.

If I did the mid-engine layout in the one kit car design - I would have to give up the rear seat. Plus it would only be RWD. IF I were to give up seating for two extra poeple - it be for a mid-engine V6 or more likely V8 = oh yea........

I like the subaru AWD - and I like to have the entire set up Subaru - for safety and part/repair issues. I know its not like the VW - where one can flip the R&P - however I still am hopeful - if I can talk with a Subaru tranny tech - and get some detail info of the inter workings - just maybe a new center case - or what not can be remachined. Plus I am open to both Auto and 5/6 speed options.

Plus I plan to have the car low to the ground - My thoughts are if I used a mix of VW Transaxle, Subaru Engine and whatever front Diff. The car would sit higher and be a headache for any mom and pop garage to work on.

Anyways MTCW. Thanks agian for you input; Helps keep those gears turning.

Sincerely, Tony

#6 Skip

Skip

    Flatuous Blather

  • Moderator
  • 8,991 posts
  • Latrobe, Pennsylvania

Posted 03 February 2006 - 05:37 PM

Hi Tony
Welcome to the good ship USMB.

Here is an out of the box suggestion.
Since the newer Subaru engines have electronically controlled
fuel and spark. Why not get new cams ground and make the engine run
in the opposite direction. *a new starter would be necessary.
The drive train would then run backward and your
rear engine / tranny combo would work.

Now would the bevel gears and pinions take this reverse thrust?
The hydraulic pump in the auto tranny would need to pump in reverse.

Sorry, I'll go crawl back under my rock now.





my soon to be rear engined "Suby powered" kit car
Posted Image

#7 Hodaka Rider

Hodaka Rider

    Original BC Soobnut

  • Members
  • 1,577 posts
  • Nelson, BC (Canada)

Posted 03 February 2006 - 05:57 PM

I had thought of going that route, Skip (used to be popular way of putting a Corvair engine into VW's), but I'm not sure if it'll work with the Soob oil pump.

#8 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 03 February 2006 - 07:35 PM

Im about to embark on building a rear engine awd buggy, using EJ20 engine+ 4eat trans. With the auto there is a gear drive to the 'front' cw+p housed in the rear of the trans. if i exchange this for a chain, which i have heard of as already being done, then i will have reverseds the cw+p, and simply have to the use the appropriate front diff or flip a subaru diff upside down. Bonus is a fulltime rearwheel drive, with front drive engagement on the fly using manual control on the soleniod-c controlled clutchpack.

2. The EJ20 manual box has a hollow secondary shaft and the pinion to the front diff runs inside this, returning power from the centre diff. you could replace the centre diff with a custom gearset and have the cw+p rotate in the opposite direction to the rest of the trans, but reliability would be questionable since these 2 shafts are designed to have very little movement against each other. the inner rotates freely against the outer but im not sure if it has needle bearings, plain bearings or simply oil-grooved faces and how long this scenario would work for. Alternatively you could flip the cw over and have a custom pinion manufactured. that would be a better idea.

3. To make an EJ DOHC run backward you could just carefully retime the cams and rotate them backwards. Run an external oil pump and a custom water pump. Probbaly to difficult to make reliable.

4. EA81 engines, while old, have a geardrive to the camshaft. replace this with a timing chain and you have reverse crankshaft while all other engien parts still rotate normally.


Question... in a lightweight on road car will the benefits of adding AWD outweight the extra weight penalty ? I know offroad that the 4wd is worthwhile even on relatively rear-weight-baised vehicles, when driving on soft terrain, but on road the extra traction to be gained is how much? at what loss to handling/braking performance ?

#9 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:39 PM

Mike - are you sure about the Auto trans?? I must say I never seen the inter workings of a subaru - auto or manual trans. In a Harley Trans years ago - we use to machine the case to support a shaft and an idler gear - this allowed a 4 speed tranny to become and 3 speed with reverse. I used them in the Custom "HARLEY" trikes I built. So just maybe - in stead two smaller gears and a chain - one could have a post machined in the case to support a third gear, in between two smaller gears, and thus end up with the same out come - making the shaft turn the other way. Plus the gears would be in fluid all the time.

MTCW - on trying to rework the engine so it runs backwards - as some put it. I feel it is to much to sort out. Will the oil passages work ok for the engine and trans both. Would the gears in the trans work well running backwards and the list goes on and on.

I am still of the mind set - that the tranny is the key area to rework and spend one's efforts.

BTW - the main reason for the AWD in one if not more of my kit car designs - so people can drive them year around - way up north too - rather then just seaonal = spring/summer. Plus my thoughts are that it would only help to offer better control, in driving/handling, over what most end up with - when building "REAR engine" cars. Having that much weight hanging over the rear - and having the AWD should help with much better overall control in pretty much all conditions. Just my 1/2 cent worth. LOL

But agian that is what R&D is for...

PS srry if this does not make much sense - as I am burt out and need my beauty sleep - HECK - who am I trying to fool - Beauty sleep has not help this old fart thus far in life - ROFLMBO

Good Night all,

#10 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 04 February 2006 - 03:02 AM

I have 2 4eats out of cars lying round, if i got excited tomoro i could remove a rear housing and have a look to be sure. But its summer here and too hot to do anything during the day ;)

BTW the 4eat from diff is unusal in the the cw is offset and faces outwards, the pinion runs down the side of the casing. Ive had the front end apart..

Posted Image

#11 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 05 February 2006 - 09:49 PM

External views:

http://webhost1.insp...oc/4eatside.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...c/4eatfront.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...eatlhoutput.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...oc/4eatrear.jpg

Internal views of clutchpack assembly, and front pinion position. Sorry, but ive disassembled the front 'bellhousing' and reclaimed the scrap value from this particular trans.

http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_1.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_2.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_3.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_4.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_5.jpg
http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_6.jpg

#12 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:31 PM

Mike, Thanks for taking the time to get and post those pics....

For what I can see - Looks to me in the picture listed below; the tube would be in the way of any chain. http://webhost1.insp...yloc/4eat_3.jpg

1) Is that tube for the clutchpack, in the tail of the trans, for the rear wheels?
2) If the tube does stick out to far - Can it be reworked - so a chain would fit?

Tony

#13 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:41 AM

I would use smaller diameter sprockets than the gears. Where theres a will..... theres greedy relatives. And a way.

#14 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 07 February 2006 - 08:47 AM

I agree smaller gears - one would have to - but it looks like they will have to be half the size of what they are now - to get them to fit. But then again not always so easy, to see such details, from a picture.

You never said - what is the tube for? And does it stick out a little (that one first bend) between the gears?

OH BTW - I forgot to mention - liked the tierod support you had made for the front shaft support bearing housing. Thanks again for sharing the pics and info.

PS - Do you or anyone else know - who makes the Transmissions for Subaru?
(I have had no such luck, with my online searches, trying to find out)

#15 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 08 February 2006 - 12:54 AM

I guess you mean the oil feed piping, it dowsnt seem to be in the way as much as it might look in the pics.

As far as i know subaru make their own transmissions from scratch.

#16 jmarsa

jmarsa

    New User

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • USA

Posted 09 February 2006 - 10:51 PM

Hi I joined just to reply to this. And I searched here before posting. :)

Not trying to hi-jack here, I don't know if Tony know's this is an option.

I was doing some research and found that Saker race cars use an EJ engine and trans. They convert the AWD trans to a transaxle by using only the FWD outputs and block off the rear. Does anyone know what needs to be done to eliminate the RWD part of the transmission? I'm not having any luck searching on Subie transmission conversions.

Thanks,

--JMarsa

#17 WoodsWagon

WoodsWagon

    Formerly 91Loyale

  • Members
  • 3,945 posts
  • NH

Posted 09 February 2006 - 11:49 PM

Subaru sold 2wd auto's and manuals for EJ's from 1989-1994.

#18 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:01 PM

Ive talked to a sakar staff member a few times, they arnt far away from me. They initially used the 2wd box in their designs but found it could not handle the power, bearing in mind they were putting 450+hp thru the box on a tarmac racetrack in a vehicle intended to be thrashed. So a 2wd box might work fine for other applications, depending on availale power/torque and the tires being used and the enthusiam of the driver.
They use the 4wd box from the wrx because its a stronger box, lock the centre diff with a purpose made spool and then replace the tailshaft housing with a flat plate, since theres nothing there. I imagine they now use the 6 speed box.

#19 jmarsa

jmarsa

    New User

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • USA

Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:14 PM

Mikie,

Thanks for the reply. I posted the pics of the Saker tans I found on my web space:

Posted Image

and this one:

Posted Image

From the looks of it I'm guessing the trans in the above pics it's the AWD trans.

Mikie, do you know if they sell the parts for the transmission conversion outside of thier kit?

--JMarsa

#20 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:52 PM

Im sure they do, perhaps just dorp them a line and enquire if youre serious. It looks like its a well made block off plate.

#21 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:53 PM

JMarsa, Because they placed their engine as a "mid-engine" over a Rear engine layout - they can use any one of the subaru trannys... AS LONG AS IT CAN HANDLE THE HP

This is simple and can be done without any real headaches - because the tranny is facing in the same dirrection as it was from the factory.

NO real need for an AWD tranny in that set up.

Hey Mikie, After looking at your pics and thinking some more - I know - I too see the smoke coming from my head - lol I have to agree the chain is the way to go - over the three gears.

I found a 95 AWD car for $500 - I am thinking hard about picking up.
My only concern - I found out today - not all trannys are the same - when it comes to ordering them from the dealer. That in it self concerns me big time. AS I hate to measure things up and make a frame to hold this kind of set up and then - end up using - yet another tranny all together.

But then again 5 bills for an entire car. OH - but then I have to add on shipping to get it here - as it is not from my area.

#22 mikie

mikie

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts
  • New Zealand

Posted 11 February 2006 - 04:56 PM

There is several model codes of 4EAT. Just looked at 3 of mine and they all have different codes, as follows:
1989 non-turbo TZ102-ZD1AA
1992 non-turbo TZ102-ZD2AA
1992 turbo TZ102-ZB2AA

Externally these are identical. They all operate the same. Internally the turbo model has a slightly larger torque converter, and extra plate in the clutch packs. In practise when a workmates trans broke down (the 1992 trans above thats sitting in my backyard) we replaced it with the non-turbo trans of the same year and it works without a hitch, without even changing the ecu. I believe in practise each of these variations with its matching ECU ARE completely interchangable, although the turbo model is stronger. If anything the shift points might be remapped, we are talking about revisions of the same transmission. In about 1998 the trans changed completely to one that has a proper centre differential.

#23 Tony_n_Ca

Tony_n_Ca

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Canada and USA

Posted 11 February 2006 - 05:35 PM

Thanks again Mikie.

BTW did you get my PM about the sprocket? - Please respond in PM thanks.....

#24 deerhunter

deerhunter

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • British Columbia, Canada

Posted 24 February 2006 - 07:29 PM

Hey Tony. Welcome to the bunch.:banana: My bro in southern BC is working on rwd suby buggies. He may have some good ideas for you too. Maybe save you some dead ends. He can be reached at subyjim@hotmail.com. Good luck.

#25 grossgary

grossgary

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 19,900 posts
  • WV

Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:03 PM

the subaru XT6 (ER27) has been mounted in porshce 911's though not with a subaru transmission so i guess that does you no good. eric tischer is the guys name if you want to look him up on the internet, i've spoke with him in the past.
he has pictures of his set up, rear engine.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users