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New engine, bad miss & P0106


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18 replies to this topic

#1 davebugs

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:19 PM

Edit P0106 gone, miss still exists.

This car had no CEL but had piston slap and had probably been overheated due to someone not plugging in the radiator fans. Either that or a legitimate HG issue which is what the PO was told. Car has 172k.

I bought another 2.2 with 88k that was from a wrecked car. I had to replace the Drivers side cam sprocket and cam sensor, TB cover. I was doing the TB, seals, O-rings anyway. All seemed well.

I took some stuff off the intake to be able to get the flexplate bolts in (genious design if you have the hands of a 6 year old). Connectors, hoses and such and tried to pay attention and button them up in the same order even - they were kinda layered.

Started the car. Misses badly. Only code P0106 - MAP sensor. I doublechecked the vacuum lines and will go back up and check again. I did buy a splice thing for the line that goes from the fender well to the white plastic thing about the size of a quarter. I've spliced these lines before on 2.2's and a 2.2 swap with no issues. I'm always afraid that I'll break that little quarter sized thing since it's old and plastic and the JY always cuts the line coming from the fender.

Before the CEL light came on I was pulling plug wires and they all have spark. It does sound like it's only one cylinder missing. Would it even run at all is 2 cylinders missed?

I'll go recheck vacuum lines and connectors where I accessed the flexplate again.

Hints and guesses welcomed.

I'm guessing 2 different issues here?

How best to check injectors (without NOID light) for an electrical amateur?

New NGK plugs, Packard wires that look practically new - "and she was running when she crashed". Coil pack looks good, connections are clean.

I do have all the stuff off the old engine to swap but I'd like to atleast have a good guess to start with.

Gotta give it some throttle to start. Only issue that I see is that the throttle cable will need adjusted - it's too loose but I'm far from that. Much more major issues first.

Dave

#2 johnceggleston

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:53 PM

what year 2.2 did you buy? if it's an interferrence engine, 97- up, you might have valve damage. why did you have to replace the cam sprocket?

#3 davebugs

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 02:56 PM

P0106 is gone. Never found anything - just reseated some stuff so it could possibly come back.

My real issue is the miss. I'lve tested plug wires (the little thing you hold over them) and all have spark. I pulled them off one at a time when a helper was here and couldn't tell which one didn't make a difference. I just did the same thing with the injectors.

The only CEL's I've had are the P0106 and each injector reading low when I had unplugged them.

No CEL about the miss. The car is setting stationary - is this why no CEL with a miss?

Dave

#4 davebugs

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:03 PM

what year 2.2 did you buy? if it's an interferrence engine, 97- up, you might have valve damage. why did you have to replace the cam sprocket?


Car was hit. Sprocket cracked, TB cover broke, cam sensor kinda smashed.
TB was still intact.

It is a 98 I believe which is interference which is why I installed the new TB. I had a 97 Impreza before with HG issues and remembered they were interference.

I guess the good news is that I can wait until it cools down and do a compression check. I don't have the battery back in and for the first time didn't pull the washer bottle since those screws look like they'll snap.

It certainly sounds like the next step unless someone comes up with another idea of something I can try while it's warm.

Dave

#5 hankosolder2

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:09 PM

P0106 is gone. Never found anything - just reseated some stuff so it could possibly come back.

My real issue is the miss. I'lve tested plug wires (the little thing you hold over them) and all have spark. I pulled them off one at a time when a helper was here and couldn't tell which one didn't make a difference. I just did the same thing with the injectors.

The only CEL's I've had are the P0106 and each injector reading low when I had unplugged them.

No CEL about the miss. The car is setting stationary - is this why no CEL with a miss?

Dave


That's sure a strange one. Just a few thoughts. Is the idle speed normal or high? The subaru ECU kills one cylinder's injector if it detects overly high uncontrolled idle speed. I had this happen to me on an engine swap with sticking IAC valve and it was pretty baffling! I think it should set a code, though.

I also think that there are some variations of the cam sprockets, vis-a-vis the pins for the cam position sensor. Are you sure you have the right one? It has to be a match for the ECU in the car, not the donor engine.

Nathan

#6 davebugs

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:17 PM

The cam sprocket and sensor came off the old engine which ran fine other than piston slap and had probably been overheated. The sprocket seemed identical. I looked at it because the last 97 that I had someone else do had and issue and had to change the cam sprockets due to the reason yoi're speculating.

Now there are NO CEL's (since the P0106 seems to have healed itself).

I'm wondering if the fact that I need to give it gas to get it to start is a hint or just a reflection that the other 3 cylinders need to carry the load.

Can't believe such a miss and no codes - unless the car has to move first. Which reminds me to add tranny fluid since the torque converter wanted to come out with the engine and it lost a bit more than normal.

#7 EVOthis

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:32 PM

prob. pointing out the obvious but....make sure the injector connectors are in the correct injector.....i had the cyl 2 and cyl 4 injector connectors swapped and it drove me up the wall trying to find my missfire....i guess you overlook the simple things when something so major is happening to your engine....:-\....not sure how it is on a 97' 2.2 but on my 96 2.2 white connectors in front grey connectors in rear.....just a simple check.....

#8 davebugs

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:48 PM

They look good. First of all someone would have to have screwed with them. I installed the whole engine so I never had the intake off.

Secondly I did look at the wiring to see if swapping intakes may make sense and it look undisturbed before I started unplugging injectors. #2 injector's wire looked like it may have gotten 'pinched' a little at the end of the injector so I started with it.

Third - as I unplugged each injector the Injector circuit low error followed the appropriate injector.

But thanks for the thoughts

#9 davebugs

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:24 PM

Update - no conclusion for sure yet.

#1 0 compression, clean plug
#2 150 compression carboned plug
#3 0 compression, clean plug
#4 160 compression, carboned plug.

FYI the plugs were brand new and the car has idled a few minutes total.

Pulled the TB cover off both sides. Belt is either exact or off one tooth - they never seem to line up exactly on the drivers side for me. Perhaps it's because I use Dayco belts and one time used a generic chinese belt from importexperts.

I'm going back up to pull the rad, take off the harmonic balancer and check the crank marks. I expect that mark to be fine. I suspect that I'll be removing this engine - joy. Nothing like doing a job twice. And loosing money on parts - cam seals, both crank seals, Orings.

Dave

Edit: Not that it matters now but while warming the car up to do the compression check I tried unplugging the injectors one at a time and they all had some effect on the engine running. This compression issue must be why all plug wires and injectors appeared to have some effect and why I couldn't figure out one cylinder that was having an issue to start looking at the injector, etc.

#10 davebugs

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:06 PM

Timing looks o.k. with the possible exception of the one tooth on the drivers side that never ligns up for me. I have some pics but doubt there is sense in posting them.

Tomorrow I get to call the JY that I bought the engine from that has a 6 mo warranty and see just how hosed I am. I've never had any trouble with other parts/engines that I've gotten from them.

At this point I'm thinking it may be easier (for me) to fix the head in the car - something I've never done. Rather than pull this engine, wait on another to be delivered, it will probably need cam and crank seals, Orings, baffle plate sealed like the last one. Put this TB and plugs in and I'm ready to go. Guess I'll remove the cam sprocket, cam sensor, and TB cover since this motor came with those parts broken.

Bummer - never had a bad Suby engine delivered before.

Dave

#11 EVOthis

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 02:50 PM

HG issue?....i would do a leakdown test....

#12 davebugs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:06 PM

With the engine being in a wrecked car even though the TB didn't fail the cam sprocket on the drivers side did fail(bent not broken), and the cam sensor, and the TB cover.

Car theoretically had 88k on it when it wrecked. Seems kinda low mileage for HG issue on a 2.2. I'm thinking it had more to do with the wreck than HG. Also with NO compression I would think it would smoke, that I'd hear compression leaking, or something. When I had the engine hanging and did the cam and crank seals and Orings, baffle plate, I didn't notice anything particularly ugly when checking to see if it needed valve cover gaskets while it was out of the car.

I double checked the timing markings and actually posted the pics in another thread of someone having a similar issue that didn't know if he had his lined up properly.

Like I said - 'she was running when she crashed' - I doubt there was 0 compression at that time.

Dave

#13 johnceggleston

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:25 PM

i don't know if this relates to your situation, but a mechanic once told me to be very leary of suby engines with broken timing covers and/or cam sprockets. he said the cam bearings or 'thrust' something can be damaged and you won't know unless you look for it. i don't really know what he was talking about but i put it out there in case it helps.

this guy did a lot of 2.5L head gaskets, but had never done a 2.2 > 2,5 swap. so who knows?

#14 davebugs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:53 PM

This was a 2.2 for a 2.2.

I understand that if the TB was compromised that it certainly could create an issue. The cam pulley was bent but still on, timing belt was still tight. I actually forgot to look at the timing marks before I removed the belt to see if it had slipped. The cam sprocket was pushed back into the cam sensor, broke the TB cover. I tried to pay extra attention when doing the Oring and cam seal on that side (drivers side). The side with no compression is the other side (passenger side).

Haven't heard back from the JY yet. I'll be tied up most of this week anyways. Thinking of just fixing the head rather than pulling the engine, waiting on another one, buying more seals, swapping TB and plugs, etc.

Haven't found a procedure here so if I do the head in the car I may take some pics.

Dave

#15 montana105

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:05 PM

Can't say that i'm the most highly regarded Subaru guy,but the 0 compression on 1 and 3(same side) seems odd if you've got spark and gas at those cylinders.

#16 davebugs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:16 PM

Can't say that i'm the most highly regarded Subaru guy,but the 0 compression on 1 and 3(same side) seems odd if you've got spark and gas at those cylinders.


Yep. And the timing belt is correct.


I'm out of town for a day or so and the JY asked what I wanted to fix the head. We'll see what happens - I only paid 275 for the engine. I'd rather not re-pull the engine and go through re-gasketing the next one. If they'll credit me 150 or so on my next purchase I'll probably just attempt to remove the head with the engine in the car and either have it fixed, or use the head off the engine that came out, or the head off another 97 2.2 that had HG issues and smoked. No matter what head it'll be checked/redone first and get new gaskets.

I should know by the end of the week. Infact I hope to have the head sent out by then or this engine out.

Dave

#17 davebugs

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:56 PM

All it took to solve the issues was another engine from a different place. Which also meant new Cam seals, Orings, reseal baffle plate, move over TB and spark plugs, the ATF metal lines.

This was after removing the bad engine after I had given up on moving the engine enough to try and get the torque necessary to get those head bolts off in the car. Turns out it was a good move. Otherwise perhaps I wouldn't have seen where the intake valves left gouges in the pistons. I might have just had the head done, re-installed it, and sent the car down the road with a potential future problem.

So I had paid cash and now get to wait for a check from the first place.

I must say the SECOND engine for this car is just about the quitest Suby engine I've ever heard. Amazingly quiet from the initial startup.

One question. I know the air didn't work but I didn't want to play with it until I got the engine swap done. Is the fact that the AC doesn't work why the second fan won't come on. It certainly doesn't come on when I push the air button and it hasn't come on due to temp (yet).

Dave

#18 hankosolder2

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 10:17 PM

All it took to solve the issues was another engine from a different place. Which also meant new Cam seals, Orings, reseal baffle plate, move over TB and spark plugs, the ATF metal lines.

This was after removing the bad engine after I had given up on moving the engine enough to try and get the torque necessary to get those head bolts off in the car. Turns out it was a good move. Otherwise perhaps I wouldn't have seen where the intake valves left gouges in the pistons. I might have just had the head done, re-installed it, and sent the car down the road with a potential future problem.

So I had paid cash and now get to wait for a check from the first place.

I must say the SECOND engine for this car is just about the quitest Suby engine I've ever heard. Amazingly quiet from the initial startup.

One question. I know the air didn't work but I didn't want to play with it until I got the engine swap done. Is the fact that the AC doesn't work why the second fan won't come on. It certainly doesn't come on when I push the air button and it hasn't come on due to temp (yet).

Dave



Glad to hear you got it sorted. Re: A/C- you can (briefly!) jumper out the A/C pressure sensing switch, turn the A/C on and see if both fans kick in. Don't run the system for more than a few sec w/o a refrigerant charge.

Nathan

#19 davebugs

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 10:29 PM

Glad to hear you got it sorted. Re: A/C- you can (briefly!) jumper out the A/C pressure sensing switch, turn the A/C on and see if both fans kick in. Don't run the system for more than a few sec w/o a refrigerant charge.

Nathan


I'll search for that info tomorrow. I'm a little lacking in the electrical department and I don't currently know where the A/C pressure sensing switch is or what to jumper when I've found it.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Dave




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