a97obw

Car is on stands and all set to go. Having the car on jack stands or ramps may not be a good idea. Be forewarned that when you remove the exhaust y pipe at the engine it is going to drop....and the only thing holding it up might just be the wiring to the oxygen sensor! Also, you are going to need a floor jack under the transmission. Check if you have enough reach to do this with the car on the jack stands. In fact, the only thing you'll have to disconnect under the car will be the exhaust. I'd take it off the stands at least for safety sake as when you go back in with the engine, the transmission is going to be moving around quite a bit with the pitching stopper (dogbone to firewall) removed. Major tip----find a bolt nut and washers to put in the chain on the hoist to form a loop that you can then put on the hook of the hoist. The transmission is going to be angled upwards at the front when you use the floor jack to get the engine mounts clear of the crossmember, and the engine without a bolt in the hoist chain at the right spot is going to balance with the front quite a bit lower than the flywheel end. Trial and error on where to put the bolt/washers/nut on the chain to form the loop to get things to line up better will save you a LOT of time putting the engine back in. Ohh--find a turkey baster or other suction bulb to remove the ATF from the power steering pump before you flip it and put it on the passenger side fender area.....or else you've got a REAL mess! I have 24 hours to get this done and out of the garage before the mother-in-law arrives................ Dude, wait till the inlaws are gone. This is going to take some time to do, especially if you are doing it alone. Good Luck and BE SAFE!

Should you remove the engine, you can manage to get the power steering pump and hoses to stay put in a plastic or whatever pan on the passenger side strut tower/airbox area, and as for the A/C compressor you'll want to find a piece of wood or something to lay the compressor on. If you flip the compressor over and put it on the drivers side strut tower area it puts the hoses in a major kink situation. And the hoses are NOT cheap! So the next to last thing I did in removing the engine was to disconnect the fuel lines. Then I flipped the compressor over and to the side, hoisted the engine out and then promptly put the compressor in a better spot. Good Luck!

Go buy 200 cans of "Great Stuff" expanding foam, fill the interior of the Subaru with it and then push it off into the Mississippi river. I'll pick it up in Vicksburg next week, fix it for a nominal fee; of course you'll have to get down here to pick it up when I'm done..... and I don't do foam! But on the serious side, it is going to cost about $500-$600 in OEM Subaru parts (from one of the discount online dealerships) alone to do it right, then there is the labor and it is quite labor intensive---remove the engine like I did or leave the engine in the car and work with small hand mirrors and buy stock in Doans back pills....if I had to do another one I would definitely remove the engine from the car!

I'd change it ASAP. Although the mileage is an issue, I think at this point the greater issue is due to age. Think of it as a "Pay me now or pay me (much much more) later" scenario.

My 92 Legacy wagon automatic AWD would tow a HEAVY Iron Dog 5X8 trailer with 15" tires/heavy pine flooring with a Kawasaki Bayou 220 ATV (400 lbs.) at 70 MPH and you didn't know it was back there. Then when I went "up" to a Honda 300 Fourtax 4x4 (527 lbs.) I could tell I was towing a trailer. Now towing the trailer with the Honda behind the 97 Legacy Outback wagon at 70 mph is a breeze.

I'd almost trade you straight up for my 97 OBW 5 speed 93K with the head gaskets/timing belt/waterpump/clutch/oil seperator/seals/you name it done only 2k miles ago. Then YOU'D have a non-bastardized car to sell to the general public, and you'd sleep better at night for any non-disclosure on the engine swap..... And I'D have a mechanically superior car with just a few more miles on it, and like yourself, sleep much better at night. It's a win-win! Oh....and Mississippi IS nice this time of year!

Now that you mention it, I just yesterday got a telephone call from "The Warranty Division" and the dude on the phone told me their "records" indicated I had a motor vehicle with less than one hundred thousand miles and........... I told the dude I wasn't interested, no see you later, CLICK! And now that I think about it, the next time "The Warranty Division" calls, I'm going to tell that fellow on the phone "I sure DO have a motor vehicle with less than one hundred thousand miles, since I DISCONNECTED the speedometer two years ago!":cool:

I would guess that the "new and improved" countermeasure pistons that don't slap about when cold due to the short piston skirt design are ones that have a longer skirt. If that is the case, how can you possibly get away with only replacing one side of the engine with the new pistons? I should think the weight of the pistons would be waaaaaaaaaay different than the short skirt ones, and that can't be good!

What? I got no takers on the test!? IF you do it like I described it, I promise you won't slip with a wrench and bust your knuckles! The vacuum gauge test I agree would be a good one, but for a "quick and dirty" comparison to start with....

Ok, my 97 Legacy Outback wagon has a really funky "flat spot/hesitation/miss at between about 800 and 1200 rpm. Engine cold or hot doesn't matter. With the AC on and idle at about 900 or so, I'm sitting in a paint shaker at the traffic light and it is driving me nuts!--oh, manual transmission so the driveshafts aren't an issue. I think at least one of my catalytic converters may be stopped up or failing, and here is a test one of you guys can try and reply back to the thread...please! Ok, start car with cold engine without touching the accelerator. Starts right up and is running at about 1500 rpm. Test 1: At the initial starting RPM, check the amount of exhaust pressure you feel on your hand by holding your hand close to the tailpipe. Make mental note. I'm not feeling much at all at the initial idle of 1500 RPM. As the engine warms up, the RPMs decrease to 800 or so RPM, with a few slight up/down episodes. Now that it is fully warm and idling at 800 RPM.... Test 2: Again, how much pressure do you feel at the tailpipe with your hand? I'm feeling MUCH more exhaust flow against my hand at 800 rpm and warmed up than at 1500 rpm with a cold engine. Give it a try for me, would ya? I'm thinking my cats are toast and the 800-1200 rpm funkiness may be the engine trying to overcome the obstruction. Thanks!

Yep, I'd say you've probably got a "dead spot" in at least one of your struts. I replaced the struts and upper mounts in my log wagon of a 97 Outback and it's like a Town Car now. There was one spot on the drivers side strut that had no resistance for about an inch or so.

They are waiting to get heads back from machine shop and just want to make me happy. I got quotes for the original work from other dealers who came in $1500- $2000 less. Dealer 1 is looking in to this and lent me an 06 Outback. Man, this just gets uglier and uglier don't it! Why did dealer #1 send the heads off to the machine shop? Are they actually repairable? Hint---a parts manager at a Northwest US Subaru dealership informed me about a month ago that Subaru's price listing for "remanufactured cylinder heads" entailed a brand spanking new head. Other than surfacing the cylinder head mating surface, I don't know what your local machine shop could produce---IF they are able to machine the bottoms of the bearing caps and the "saddles" in the heads and then line bore them I'd like to see that. Make no mistake about it, they put you in an '06 to try and make a sale. And seeing as how you really liked your old Subaru and don't want the new car payments, I think showing up at the dealership with your attorney and suggesting you'll take blue book private party value PLUS the $3500 you spent on the repairs, and they can do what they want with the car in order for you to forget about the whole matter might not be too far off the mark. You can always negotiate downwards from there. Hey, they just want to "make you happy", correct? Good Luck and keep us posted!

Rut ro! Another Subaru from New York with the same self destruction? What are the chances?! http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=54665

So how do I get it to go away, like on a permanent basis?? Grow up?

Since one of my other cars is a 66 VW Microbus, complete with howling gear reduction boxes, a 1543.8 single port engine with dual Kadron carbs, and what my friend calls the DHMF (here is a clue....the DH stands for Ditch Hunting....you can guess the rest!) 4 wheel drum brakes that are ALWAYS a surprise as to which way the bus is going to go when you put the brakes on......I think you'd be WAY ahead of the game to measure the wheelbase/track of a legacy and compare that to the bus, then swap the legacy body for the bus body and retain things like an airbag!!

Pass pass pass pass pass on that one! You can only figure that it got traded in due to the overheating problem of which you don't know how many times or how long that was an issue, and who else has driven it since it was traded in?? Let somebody else like it is!!

I drove my 97 Outback for 4 1/2 years and 53K miles when it finally hit 91K miles and the head gaskets bit the dust. If I was considering purcasing another Subaru with the 4 cam 2.5 engine, I'd make sure I figured in the cost to replace the head gaskets in the purchase price. I was in Vicksburg MS last week and happened to notice a 98 Outback Limited on the used lot at a Nissan/Jeep dealership. Black with grey leather interior, pretty clean and only 45K miles. Since I was driving my 97 OBW at the time, I asked the salesman "how much difference are you going to give ME on a trade for that one?":lol: I then asked him what they were asking for the car, and he told me...are you ready...... "only" $9995 (Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Ninety Five dollars!) Needless to say, I left laughing. Perhaps it was a "loaner" from the now out of business Subaru dealership and Wayne Newton used it to get to one of the local casinos or something.... Anyways, back to the topic, for 4 1/2 years and the 53k miles I've driven my OBW, it was LOUD on the interstate at 70mph and sounded like it was going to explode at any moment in 5th gear turning about 3200 rpm. I probably had 5 or 6 episodes of check engine light where it "detected a misfire on cylinder X" during that time. Since I replaced the head gaskets, it is a totally different engine. MUCH much more quiet at speed! So I'd drive more than one in making your decision!

1. Reading the posts indicate I can make my own cam sprocket holder to prevent the cams from turning when the old T-belt is removed (really only needed on the left side? true or false?) from sockets and flat stock? The endwrench.com information would make you think both sides should be "locked down" and catastrophe results if the cams move? What if a cam does turn, do you turn it "back" or roll it on through to its original position? I'd replace the spark plugs while you are doing the rest of the work, simply because if you remove the spark plugs before you remove the timing belt, you will be able to turn the engine over much easier by hand without compression working against you in order to get the crank and cam marks lined up before removing the belt. Once all the marks are lined up correctly and you remove the belt, watch out for that upper (intake) cam on the left side of the engine (right side as you are looking at the engine from in front of the car)....that's the only one that has the valve springs compressed....and it'll take the hide off your hands if you grab it and it spins! The other 3 cams will be fine. I've never used any kind of special tool to hold the cams in order to put the timing belt on. If you'll start at the crank with the new belt, then under the tensioner pulley, and then to the upper right (as you are looking at it) cam, around to the lower cam etc. it won't spin on you. 2. I am confused about whether the cam sprockets need to be removed in order to replace the seals? It would seem so... and if the sprockets do need to be removed how is that done without the cam shafts turning? Yes, you have to remove the camshaft sprockets to replace the camshaft seals. Easiest way to do this is to break the camshaft sprocket bolts loose before removing the old timing belt by first turning it over to line up all the marks....and then I'd remove the valve covers in order to put a LARGE crescent wrench on the hex shape cast into the cams which is how you are supposed to hold them. Of course at your mileage, you may as well check the valve adjustment and replace the valve cover gaskets and the spark plug gaskets (the 4 gaskets that fit in the valve covers around the spark plug holes). 3. About resealing the oil pump...is there a seal (part#10991AA001) that fits between the pump body and the block? Also, is there another point that needs sealing requiring the "ultra gray" RTV? Not sure about that part number, but it is an O ring that you replace. I'd put a dab of grease on the O ring and fit it to the engine block right before you put the pump housing back on the engine. Prefer a small bead of anaerobic sealent on the pump housing using the illustration of the Haynes manual for where to put the sealant. 4. The T-belt tensioner sounds kind of fragile... are they typically reusable? What, they are about $75 or so....cheap insurance! Good Luck and have fun!

Excellent!

Before Dealer #1 has the car hauled back to their shop on a flat bed truck, I'd make DURN sure that Dealer #2 and you both take a BUNCH of photos and even then I'd get at least the regional Subaru rep to take a look at what you have. Then go up the chain of command if you have to in order to get this resolved. Yes, mistakes can and do happen......but at probably in excess of $100 an hour for labor you'd expect to get a technician that knew to pay attention and get this part right, as it IS as you found out, crucial to the reassembly of the engine. And yes, if the head gaskets were replaced, they had to remove the camshafts on these engines. In the photo I posted earlier, the "blueish" colored bolt heads are the cylinder head bolts, which on the 4 cam 2.5 engine reside underneath the camshafts. On second thought, I don't think my car would be going back to Dealer #1. I think the Service Manager and the Owner of Dealer #1 would be driving to Dealer #2 to have a look at things.....with yourself and corporate Subaru folks. Good Luck! ps...need an "expert witness"? I've got a brief case, I'm from out of town, and I'll stay at a Holiday Inn Express if I have to...... I hear NY is nice this time of year!

Time for a little "show and tell!":banana: (NOTE: the bananna aint dancing on your account, only because I think this is what has happened..... I FEEL for you over this deal!) Your dealer/mechanic that received the car after it "self destructed" is telling you the camshaft pulley (it IS plastic) shattered as a result of the camshaft seizing, and that the cam "cover" was incorrectly installed..... Ok, my take. I think what they really mean when they say the cam "cover" was installed incorrectly probably means that the camshaft bearing caps were not installed correctly. Note the photo of my 2.5 engine from my 97 Legacy Outback, prior to disassembly to replace the head gaskets. This is where a digital camera is worth its weight in gold....along with plastic sandwich bags to mark and catalog the parts with numbers, sketches, you got it... Ok, this happens to be the drivers side of my engine, with the valve covers removed. Note the camshaft bearing caps. There are 3 of them per camshaft X 4 cams = 12 total. Each has two bolts that secure them to the cylinder head. The middle and rear caps use an M6 bolt that gets torqued to 14.5 ft. lbs., the front cap has 2 M4 bolts for it and they get snugged to 7 ft. lbs. But they gotta go where they was (yes, I can say that) when the engine was originally built! The camshaft bearing caps are align bored with the cylinder head. In other words, you are not supposed to mix things up! If you note from the photo, this particular cylinder head is stamped, from the factory, with a designation of "YG" that can be plainly seen in the upper right hand of the cylinder head. Note also, that the camshaft bearing caps are stamped as well...with the same characters from the particular cylinder head..."YG"....the number is for which cylinder 1,2,3 or 4....."I" is for intake cam (the upper cam) and "E" is for the exhaust cam (the lower cam). The arrow points to the front (opposite the flywheel end) of the engine. And to make it all even more simple, the factory intended for you to install them so you could read them...without standing on your head! Subaru really doesn't want you to screw this up! For what it's worth, the passenger side cylinder head was designated with the stamp "SR"....along with all the bearing caps as outlined. But if you take it all apart, throw the parts in a coffee can, have a fight with your wife and then 3 days later put it all back together....it CAN happen! And in your case, I'd almost guarantee thats what happened!!

No, you do not have to remove the cam pulleys and the rear cam belt cover. What you DO have to do is note whether or not your new water pump has the rubber dog leg seal on the side, or take the old one off of your old pump and put it on your new pump. It's a tight fit, but it will go on. By far the major concern is trying to keep the gasket aligned with the holes in the pump when fitting it to the engine. You might even gently twist the coated metal gasket to make it go on mo' flatter (yes, I can say that!). A piece of red scotch bright pad and a squirt or two of carb cleaner on the pad will do wonders for cleaning the mating surface on the engine. I follow that up with paper towels and isopropyl alchol....NOT beer! As far as "wrecking the valves"......IF you turned the engine over with the timing belt still on to line up the marks on the crank and the cam pulleys before you took the belt off......I don't think there is any way you can damage the valves with regard to hitting the pistons. When the crank mark is lined up, both sides of the engine have the pistons about half way up the stroke. I noted this when I replaced my head gaskets last month on my 97 Legacy 2.5 engine.

Head bolts are not to be used twice. They are stretched in the tightening process. Which means they are infinitesimally longer than new ones. I'm in the camp that says and have re-used the head bolts.

Engine should hold right at 4.5 US quarts. If it's an automatic, I'd make sure the transmission filter retrofit has been done. Should be a metal canister type filter a little larger than the fuel filter mounted horizontally to the drivers side engine compartment just below the battery and in close proximity to the valve cover. If you don't see it, the er.....elderly lady.......might have the last laugh:eek:

I think you'll find that if you use a large C clamp attached to the back side of the caliper and a small piece of wood (paint mixing sticks are great for this) against the outside surface of the brake rotor, then slowly tighten the C clamp, you will force the caliper piston into the caliper bore enough to get the new pads on. Any "lip" edge on the rotor shouldn't be a factor in swinging the caliper upwards as the pads remain in the bracket and do not swing upwards with the caliper. I'd spend the $$ on the OEM Subaru pads as they come with new springs (the metal clips) and backing plates----some you have to apply the supplied grease to the pad backing plates and then put those on the pads, others this is already done for you, but you should get a diagram (in the box of parts) of where to put the grease on the new spring (clips) before you put them in along with the pads.