jmickelct

Hi Wayne, So you would do it yourself over a power flush? I was totally clueless that the transmission even ran through the radiator until I pulled my doing the timing belt and, while hand cranking, looking for for TDC realized that I was pumping out this red fluid all over the place! So you would just pop that line, run it out and repeat a couple of times? My local parts guy (has a 95 OBW) talked me into trying a quart of Lucas Stop Slip... any sense of how this would compare to some of the other transmission product? -John

Wow, I guess I missed that.... (I really *did* spend a couple of hours combing through, guess my query skills need some honing). This is excellent.... This site really is a life saver.... Much obliged... -John

Hi Guys, Good to hear... appreciate it. Will give it a try.. Put on new tires today; tb is a bit worse, if anything.... Will give the power purge a try and see... The metal flakes on the bottom of the pan were pretty fine, appeared to be lining most of the pan (not just stuck to the magnet). Suggestions for sources for used trannies? (apart from local junk yards...) I know of various online sources for new parts, but havent attempted something that large. And in terms of getting one to fit, what are the variables (I know my 96' was built in Indiana in Dec. 95 and have the VIN...). What else do I need (from my or a parts car)? Have combed through the list for pointers for swapping the clutch packs, have come up short for any tecnical details\work throughs (have a subscription to All Data, not much of help there). Any pointers on sources for a walk through\sequence? Really good to hear that it can be done in the car. Cheers, John

Hi, Of course a week after doing the extended timing belt job (thanks again for all the help), the tranny started torque binding... (119k mi) So popped in the FWD fuse and took it to try the power flush. AAMCO said they required a "full external inspection" (apprently checking the solenoids, electronics etc...) and even pulled the bottom pan. (no cost) *Lots* of metal' they refused to do the flush, said that I would need, in addition to the clutch pack that the Subaru dealer said I would need (~$1600-1800), also a $2500-$3200 transmission rebuild. Since I just paid $3600 for the car (June) and put ~$900 into the tb, water pump, plugs etc..., I'm obviously somewhat reluctant to stick in another $4-5k! AAMCO folks seemed straight shooting enough, and with dire warnings that a transmission flush could "break the bands" and possibly cause the seals to leak "leaving me without a car that moves" I'm weighing my options. Car needs tires, so am tempted to start with them, do the flush and say a big prayer. Assuming the worst (no change), any thoughts about: Cost of rebuild versus trying to find an already rebuilt 4EAT? (ranges?... Southern NY). (will local shops usually install an owner supplied unit?) How "doable" is a clutch pack to replace (am competent enought to be dangerous... felt comfortable with the timing belt). Prioritization, (assuming I was paying to be done) between a bad clutch pack and a tranny grinding lots of metal (though not slipping.... yet). Thoughts? -John

Wow, thanks (*thats* what I wanted to hear...). I have been paying very close attention to the crank bolt (laid it in to 130 Ft. Lbs and lathered it up good with loctite (blue) and have been checking it a.m. and p.m. every day so far (have paid attention to folks who said the same thing only to have it rattle off) Will do the oil, (whats the heaviest you tend to use?) and say a prayer (and will be bringing my tools on the trip!). Thanks again, John

Hi, Yes, am 1kmi overdue for oil change, so will do that tomorrow (will STP or any oil treatment do anything of value? On the TB front I guess I have two fears: I'm 89% sure that I got TDC (had the valve covers off, saw the cams, saw pictures of where they were suppose to be, etc...) all everything lined up well, and the left (drivers) cams did spin when I took the belt off. I also (in getting the crank bolt off ) rotated it maybe a few degrees (counter clock wise) but not a whole lot. So if I had bunged up the valves, could that cause something like this? (versus a bent valve which I am assuming would be a bit more obvious... also assuming that, since the motor wasnt running and I didnt go all that far in any one direction with anything, that (having seen the pics of where the pistons are @ TDC, assume that I'm probably good there). #2 is that, even though I checked 6-8 times putting the belt on and am 94.6% sure that I got it dead nuts on, that, hey, I could have been having a 70's flash back and I've screwed up a lot more obvious stuff than that. So am wondering what the symptoms of a 1-2tooth off belt would act\sound like. John

Hi, My gut is saying piston slap (though if you put a gun to my head I couldnt give you a very detailed or rational description or cause). But thats what it sounds like. Very intermittent, (versus "valve chatter") though as I said, seems to come go, in between revs\slow downs.

Hi, OK, cranked her up. Definitely an engine noise (versus belts\very front end). "Piston slap"? As I mentioned, it seems to be most noticable after a "rev", and then slow down to low RPMs. Not frighteningly loud, but, I think I would have noticed it if it was doing this before. It could be an artifact of the spot(s) I was able to "listen in to" (location wise), but it appeared to be more distinct from the left (driver) side valve area.... Was touching regions around each cylinder exhaust manifold. Still hard to tell if it was valves (versus crank, piston, cams?) not even sure what it could be. Am suppose to head out for a long weekend tomorrow night; any thoughts that it could be serious enough to prompt delaying the trip? Has the battery out for a couple of day; (totally new to car computers), read a bit on knock sensors, etc.... can\will the car possibly have to learn how to correct for things again. What kind of time frames does this take? I could probably get it in to my shop (or local dealer) for a second opinion, to see what they might think. Cheers, John

Hi, Yes, replaced all of the idlers (except for the lower left), including the tensioner. Havent researched it at all yet (just got it back on the road Monday), have some long bars that I will try and find a more precise location... Still getting use to the car (just had it 2 months), so I cant say for sure how much it was doing it before; have just started paying a lot more attention since I tore it apart. On the valve front, can lifters\valves\tappets "stick" I've been cheaping out on 87 octane gas (just filled up with 93 tonight, only drove 30+ miles, havent noticed a difference. I guess I'm mostly\immediately concerned that I got the belt in right. I read another of your posts that suggested that knocking was pretty bad and I'm not exactly sure of the differene between A). Knocking B.) Tapping C.) Pinging. (mine sounds a lot more like a tapping, coming from, what I am assuming, is a more isolated location. Will crank it up and see if I can be more precise. Thanks, John

Hi, Finished up my first TB (plus) job on my 1996 OBW 2.5, and the thing (miraculously) seems to run strong and very smooth (the oil leaks even seem to have abated) save for, at very low rpms, what sounds like a sticky lifter\valve kind of knock (tapping). It started when I first started up, then (assuming it'd take some time for the oil pump to get primed etc...) it actually faded to just about nil. I barely notice it now, except, as I said, when I'm about to park and the engine is rev. very low. I've heard that the engine will run, if I'm off a tooth (or two?), but things feel very smooth and the performance (new plugs) seems a bit peppier. If this something I should have checked? John

Hi Guys, Got it buttoned up yesterday and the damn thing actually runs!!! (was pretty paniced after the cams spun on me...). A little squeal in the Vbelts but have that tighened up and I'm now officially back where I started! (that the one kind of thankless part of this kind of job, (especially since the belt I took out seemed as new as the one that went in, along with the plugs etc...), but one is not actually fixing something that is broke and making it better' rather just trying to keep things from going bad. But all told, very happy that it runs smooth, seemed to have at least slowed down the multiple oil leaks, and (having replaced all but one of the idlers, the tensioner and all seals (after realizing that I put 3 of the cam seals in *backwards*!!!)), feel optimistic about driving it till the next belt-time.:-p Thanks for all the help, especially Porcupine. Cheers, John

Hi Nipper, I hear that. I ended up torqueing as much as I could and just "vibbed out" the rest.... broke a few bolt *taking them off*, but just old rusty stuff like one of the overflow tank screws and one of the radiator hold downs. Needed to crank once more on the Vbelts, but, (knock on wood), I'm actually pretty astonished that the damn thing actually runs! (*very happy*.... was really paniced after the left cams did the hula on me). Not only couldnt have done it but wouldnt have even considered the whole thing with out the folks from this listserve... Appreciate all the help (just saved nearly $700!).:-p Cheers, John

Hi, Thanks again Porcupine... I've got a few years in the trenches, but again, these aluminum deals are pretty new.... I never really considered torquing anything except head gaskets... guess its a new day.... Finally ended up with a cheap FtLbs unit as well as the Sears InLpbs unit you mentioned. Have also been paying attention to how much might be enough; have overall been struck with, save for the cam bolts and crank bolt, how everything has been *very* easy to get off.... (so have been trying to err in favor of conservatively cranking). Getting much more comfortable with both units. Curious how much folks go completely on feel, once they get use to what it should feel like. John

Hi Porcupine, Well, except for the cam seals, I'd be about done... Glad I at least stopped to ask the question (stupid as it was) on the cams, cause I was 3/4 on the way to having a really nice mess. My local parts guy had 2 of the 3 I needed, so I'm hoping to be able to finish up tomorrow. In terms of the crank, I also have a chain wrench (well actually chain vise grip) so hope to be able to get enough torque and loctite on the puppy to keep it tight. Many thanks for the pics... yes mine are identical (and now full of holes!). I did have the left (driver) side cams do the hula on me, so am hoping that I got the actual TDC before pulling the belt (feel pretty sure)... played with the cams a little when they went the *other* way, but found a picture of what the cams are suppose to look like, so with the valve covers off, I think I may be OK (will find out tomorrow). I read somebody post that they actually took a shot at firing up the car once the belt as on (and not the whole radiator etc...)... which I am tempted to do (just to see if its close). I suspect that if I dont actually let it run (just to see if it'll fire and start) that it shouldnt get too hot... Thanks, John

Hi Porcupine, Yeah, finally figured out that I had a short length of hose that just about fit into the transmission output (into the radiator). Leaks a bit but finally found TDC,so have moved past that... Heres are *really* stupid question... I've been replacing the cam seals, just putting them in the way they came out (there appears to be a "flat" side, and then the side that appears slightly cup shaped (formed by the two pieces of wire). When I got the last (Right hand exhaust), one, it was put in the other way, with the flat side out. For some reason I've been thinking that the flat side goes in, but now, having spend too much time thinking about it, I'm not sure (which, if I have the other 3 in wrong, will screw me cause I'm suppose to be at work tomorrow! Also, any thoughts as to where the flywheel window (for jamming the drive train when reinstalling the crank pulley) is? Thanks again, John

Hi, Thanks sincerely for the theoretical treatices, but in terms of the actual practical applications, do folks mostly use\own\acquire both a Ft\Lbs and an In\Lbs unit, or simply go as low as a Ft\Lbs (what most on the market seem to be), when closing up stuff that manuals say torque to In\Lbs. Also, having trained in the "crank it down good and it'll be fine" school (last car I did any appreciable work on was my 71' Nova), I now have both units and am in training. Both call themselves "click" units, but confess to really not giving you much of a click (along the lines of a sound of what a rachet might make), but more of a much quieter bump. Not wanting to strip or break too much, can folks share their experience with how you know you've hit your specified unit (short of having these pricey digital units). John

Thanks AVK, So you think that if I just keep cranking that both the sprocket marks *and* the TB marks will eventually line up? (and that there are multiple times that just the sprocket marks will line up?). Got very lucky with the crank pulley, went out this a.m. and it basically fell out in my hands.... very happy.... Oh yeah... anyone know where the fly wheel "window" is on a 96' OBW 2.5 AT that I can stick a screwdriver in to lock the drive train down while putting the crank pulley back on? Saw the pics for the 2.2, but I cant seem to find anything like that on my unit. Also, when I crank the engine over, I'm getting AT fluid from the small bottom hose I yanked from the transmission (drivers side). Can I just eat the fluid and top it up when I'm done? (versus I guess, trying to seal it off). John

Hi, 2/3 through a (first time) timing belt+ job on a 96 OBW 2.5 AT. When I yanked the radiator, I paused briefly as I came to the two small hoses connected to the drivers side edge. Thinking nothing, just disconnected, set them aside and proceeded. After a bit of hassle getting the crank pulley off, I'm finally looking to find TDC for TB removal (have pulled the spark plugs). In turning the crankshaft, I noticed AT fluid issuing forth from the bottom hose that I disconnected from the radiator (I'm guessing a transmission cooler). A bit puzzled, since I spent quite a bit of time getting prepped for the job (manual, couple weeks of post combing, AllData subscription etc... I never heard this mentioned. Question is, can I somehow stop the fluid from draining, while cranking the engine around, and, if not, (heres the embarrasing part) where is the fill point for the AT (can I just get a long funnel and, once done, check the level and add it to the dip stick check hole)? Would also love a pointer as to the location of the view space that I've heard about on the fly wheel (have heard rumors that its on the passenger side), that I can stick a screwdriver into to lock the drive train down when putting the crank pulley back on. I've crawled around quite a bit over and under and cant, for the life of me, find it. Is it accessed from above via the engine compartment; undernearth. Easy to find\access? Thanks, John

Ok, Half way in, so far, so good.. (spark plugs are a PITA)... but found that extra 3/4" that you get when you remove the valve covers to be most useful.. My big challenge at this point is geting the crank *pulley* off... the bolt came out instantly with the starter trick (though my old rachet isnt too happy)... but I'll be darned if the pulley is budging at all.. Have half a can of PB Blaster on it (got a late start, having chickened out on the torque wrench and ran down to SEARs (thanks again Porcupine... I stopped at the one by work yesterday, they were out... had to head into NJ Strip Mall land this morning to get an inch pound unit (do they *really* not make a metallic, rachet kind of click (versus, what the manual suggested was this way subtle kind of bump...) need to practice a bit before I start to button up. But would love folks secrets on getting the crank pulley off... (do I need a puller?.. doesnt look like theres much to grab on to). Have been twisting a bit with a chain wrench, while tapping with a hammer to try and get it to crack; nada. Thoughts?. Also, looking ahead to closing up, theres obviously no possible way to get a torque wrench in to tighten up the valve cover gaskets (or spark plugs???), so do folks really just do it by feel? (they came off *very* easily, so hope thats some indication). Oh and, on the T belt, getting to TDC, it appears that whoever put the last belt on kind of winged it, and didnt bother lining up the belt marks with the cam sprocket alignment marks. Following all of the descriptions and graphics I have, I've gotten to where I can get each side's double hash marks (6 oclock for uppers, 12 oclock for lowers) to align, which also seems to put the intake cams 12 oclock marks right at the gap\marks. The arrows, as per the manual, are all at (about) 1\2 Oclock) so that looks all right, and the exhaust\lower cams are both pointing to 9 and 3 but when I get the cams here (obviously havent seen the crank sprocket), the white belt marks are nowhere to be seen. Could the last guy just have counted teeth, rotated to this point and prayed? John

Hi Guys, Thanks Porcupine, this is valuable. I am hoping that everything will be locked down (though will crawl around and try to find the sealed port on the fly wheel that folks have mentioned, to stick something in to... though I'm wondering, will the whole drive train (crank) really rotate, if the AT is in park?). Next option (to break cam bolts) will be to look for the "grab point", with the valve cover gaskets removed; (anyone know where this point actually is?). And as for the parts, I went through SUBARUPARTSFORYOU.COM (which is actually run out of the parts dept. of Dan Perkins Subaru in Milford CT). I emailed in a list and drove over to pick it up, just so that I knew exactly what I'd have in my hand for the job. Good guys, very helpful. Hunting for an inch pound torque wrench now and with that, will be ready to go. John

Howdy, Ok heres my stupid question for the day. Bout to launch into a timing belt (plus) job on a 1996 OBW 2.5 EJ25 DOHC. Pretty much have my parts and accessories lined up and have a question about the loaner (OEM brand, click type, foot pound) torque wrench that AutoZone was kind enough to lend me (for a $90 deposit!). I see that I will be needing to reinstall some bolts to foot pounds and others to inch pounds. Can I just be dividing foot pounds by 12 to get inch pounds? Or will I (should I) need to lay my hands on an inch pounds unit too? John

Thanks Porcupine, Yes, I plan on Gunking off the whole engine before I start and, since the weather is looking to be very nice this weekend, plan on going very slowly, to make sure I have some sense of what I'm doing. The cams are the one part that are still something of a mystery (those and the spark plugs!) (stopped by local Sube dealer today for coolant additive and to see if I could sweet talk the use of the cam holder tool for the weekend.... that got lots of laughs...). Since I am gunning for the valve cover gaskets, an hoping that it wont go too badly, since I can at least see whats flailing around. Fingers crossed.. -John

Hi, Bout to tackle this myself. Flowmastered87GL, I saw your remark about there being, in addition to the cam seals, O rings as well, behind the "oil wall"? Just back from the parts store today (only had to rob 3 liquor stores on the way home) and didnt know about these. In your experience, do they tend to be reusable or should I hunt them down for when I open this puppy up this weekend? jmickelct

Hi, Just back from picking up parts, to do the timing belt (plus) in my 1996 OBW 2.5 EJ25 DOHC.... Since this is my first time through (will be *very* happy if I dont have to get *too* much experience), have combed several postings and combined here, with the following list of things that various folks have suggested to do "while you're in there"..... Parts listed (for other newbies) are all OEM from a local (CT) discount Sub dealer.. (they said their online discount is 20% and they gave me 25%, and their prices are very comparable to those listed at 1stsubaru.com). Seem to be about to be cheapest I could find. Basics, timing belt (get cover gaskets, just in case old ones are oil swollen), water pump, thermostat and gasket, spark plugs (and gaskets),valve cover gaskets, valve cover breather gaskets, cam seals (4), spark plugs, spark plug gaskets, crank pulley key, oil pump O ring (opted out of replacing the oil pump itself, after I heard the parts list total!), front crank seal (in oil pump), and then , again just in case, the idlers and tensioners and adjuster (which rings the price up quick!). TIMING BELT $67.00 WATER PUMP $71.12 THERMOSTAT $11.21 THERMOSTAT GASKET $2.57 OIL PUMP O RING $2.06 FRONT CRANK SEAL $5.55 CAM SEALS (4) $24.04 TIMING BELT COVER GASKETS $31.36 TENSIONER $92.02 TENSION ADJUSTER $59.29 TOOTHED IDLER $76.23 SMOOTH IDLERS (2) $112.42 SPARK PLUGS (4) $50.64 SPARK PLUG GASKETS $18.16 VALVE COVER GASKETS $15.82 VALVE COVER BREATHER GASKETS $11.84 VALVE COVER "BUTTONS" $29.28 CRANK PULLEY KEY $1.74 SUB $682.35 TAX $41.87 GT $724.22!!! I already have purchased both v\drive belts (AC, Alt, etc...), upper and lower radiator hoses, antifreeze (actually the Sub Dealer guy threw in a gallon on my way out the door, little things like that are nice..) In addition Permagasket UltraGrey Rust breaker fluid PB Blaster Draining Pan White paint, marker (for timing clarification) Loctite blue\medium Coolant system anti-leak sealant Distilled water 22mm socket and 24" Breaker bar Torque wrench (loaner?) FtLbs and InchLbs 12, 14mm sockets and range of extenders, knuckles Gasket remover Alcohol (to wipe down grease) Engine degreaser (car wash before..) a few well placed prayers.. Coming up fast on $1k (incl tools); (hoping I wont need all of the idlers), but, if I succeed in fixing more things than I break, it will be a well spent couple of days. (BTW, this site rocks!). John

Hi, New to the list and actually new to Subes... Just bought a 1996 Legacy Outback Wagon and, with 113k miles, figure its due for a timing belt (the dealer who recently looked at a dash light problem, concurs, along with, in his opinion, a water pump, oil pump, cam seals, valve cover gaskets and a bunch more (clutch pack... but thats another story). Got a good price on the car and, since its in good shape, am gearing up to start in with the timing belt (and accompying "while I'm in there" stuff). Have gone through a whole lot of the archives (on TBs) and came upon this item, from a couple of years ago, posted by Doug\RedDevil, who, it was sounding like, was in the process of compiling a video on replace at TB. Sent an email (no response) and wanted to see if anyone has seen such an item. I have margin to fair skills and tools, though they're somewhat rusty and all\any help would be pretty useful (especially with the cam\locking\timing\TDC thing (since I will be changing the cam seals). -John