740gle Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 The above developed a bad habit lately, perhaps related to the real winter that we are having this year. Happend for the third time this morning already in the course of last week. It is not driven every day. If it was sitting idle previous day, the next morning it starts really rough idling, and shaking, as if running on less than 4 cyl. Applying throttle smoothes it a bit, but not much, trying to drive, it gets close to stalling, sometimes does stall. Have to keep foot on the accelerator to keep engine running when in gear with brakes applied, or switching between D and R. Check Engine Light come up blinking, and then becomes steady on. Codes from OBD-II - Misfire in Cyl. 2 and cyl.1, Cat function below threshold. I don't think it has anything to do with the cat, I guess it's a side effect of the misfiring cylinders. Once it warms up, it runs nice and smooth again... The gas tank is almost empty this morning, but I am not sure it's relevant. New spark plugs were put by the dealer yesterday... But not wires. It looks like something in the ignition or in the engine management goes crazy at cold starts. What would be the culprit? Spark plug wires? Ignition coil module? If it is ignition coil module - how difficult is it to replace, does it have to be done, and may be programmed by the dealer, or is it just bolt-on and plug? Temperature sensor(s)? Where is/are it/they located? Oxygen sensors? - Which one? Thanks for the advice, -Michael, NJ 02' Legacy GT 134K I guess it's something related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Most likely ignition wires. Use Subaru only on this part for this engine. If the dealer replaced the plugs because of this issue I'm very surprised. They of all people should know it's usually the wires on these engines. If they've never been replaced or are not Subaru wires then there's a really good chance it's wires. 134,000 is a lot of miles out of ignition wires for these motors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 11, 2010 Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 Most likely ignition wires. Use Subaru only on this part for this engine. If the dealer replaced the plugs because of this issue I'm very surprised. They of all people should know it's usually the wires on these engines. If they've never been replaced or are not Subaru wires then there's a really good chance it's wires. 134,000 is a lot of miles out of ignition wires for these motors. The wires are not original, they are about 2 years old if my records are correct.... I was surprised they did not chenge the wires too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 The wires are not original, they are about 2 years old if my records are correct....I was surprised they did not chenge the wires too... Interesting. Are they Subaru wires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 11, 2010 Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 Interesting. Are they Subaru wires? Yes, only SUbaru parts on this car, only serviced by the dealer, or myself. Except one time when it got an aftermarket brake pads, but that's another story... IIRC The previous set (also Subaru OEM) was replaced because it would not start at all on one rainy night. Opening the hood it was throwing very nice light show... Didn't see it this time, but it would be really hard to see it unless it's dark. That time WD-40 was the rescue... Didn't think of it tis time, though... Probably because it happens in the morning..:-(.? -Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Since the wires were replaced not too long ago and the engine smooths out when warm I tend to think the wires may be okay. I think there is a cold start valve that may be the trouble or maybe the CTS sensor for the coolant is indicating a hot condition when the engine cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 11, 2010 Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 Since the wires were replaced not too long ago and the engine smooths out when warm I tend to think the wires may be okay. I think there is a cold start valve that may be the trouble or maybe the CTS sensor for the coolant is indicating a hot condition when the engine cold. That's along the lines I was thinking too, where is all that stuff located on that engine? Is there a reason why cyl. 1 and 2 misbehave in particular? Does any of these subsystems work separatly for the left and right cylinders? Wires may be culprits if the insulation gets older and crackled, and starts absorbing water when it's cold and/or humid. Is that spider-like ignition coil module on top of the engine, a possible suspect? I know it's not cheap, but is it difficult to replace? Replacing wires may still be a good idea, just as a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Cylinder s 1-2 and 3-4 fire together. Do a test. Swap the wires around. If the problem moves from 1-2 to 3-4 I would suspect wires. If it doesnt move we can inspect the coils and the CTS. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Cylinder s 1-2 and 3-4 fire together. Do a test. Swap the wires around. If the problem moves from 1-2 to 3-4 I would suspect wires. If it doesnt move we can inspect the coils and the CTS. nipper Will do the wire swap tomorrow morning. I found a set of wires on my shelf, not sure whether they are new or the set I replaced, may be they'll work better until I get new set? Ignition coil is pricey, do they fail a lot? When replacing the CTS - is there any seal or O-ring to make it water tight? Should I be prepared to catch a lot of coolant coming out? Is it better done on the cold or warm engine? Does it usually come out easy, or is applicaiton of the penetrating oil required beforehand? I use PBlaster, works great on my old Volvos. -Michael Edited February 12, 2010 by 740gle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Cylinder s 1-2 and 3-4 fire together. Do a test. Swap the wires around. If the problem moves from 1-2 to 3-4 I would suspect wires. If it doesnt move we can inspect the coils and the CTS. nipper First thing this morning - started, was cold, and it was running rough, OBD-II showed developing codes for misfire in 1 and 2, same as before,. Did swap wires between the cyl. on the pass. side, (didn't feel like taking off the windshield wiper fluid tank), it still feels like it is missing on at least one cylinder, or more, but it does not throw any codes any more, and even Misfire monitor on OBD-II is not showing incomplete... Took it to drive around the block - drives like cr...p, very sluggish, sitting on the stop sign idle is very low, and it even stalled once. Put the wires back on - still no codes, and drives the same... May be it is indeed the cat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Since the code didn't noticeably "move" and the code never returned it's hard to say what that means. Maybe nip will have a better clue. Ignition coil is pricey, do they fail a lot?They fail occasionally, but not enough to warrant the price of a new one. Post in the parts wanted forum or get one from a yard, they're cheap because few people ever need one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 Since the code didn't noticeably "move" and the code never returned it's hard to say what that means. Maybe nip will have a better clue. They fail occasionally, but not enough to warrant the price of a new one. Post in the parts wanted forum or get one from a yard, they're cheap because few people ever need one. Thanks, I'd look for the used one to have just in case. Somehow all parts places I've looked up refuse to take beack unused electrical parts. Never been a problem for me with the Volvo parts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 that's fairly common across all junk yards i've ever been too - no return on electrical parts. and understandably so actually, there's all sorts of problems with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 Just a thought, you may want to take the car into a shop where they can look at the ignition system using a scope. Looking at the pulses with that should indicate if there is really any trouble with the ignition. I doubt the trouble is with the CAT but that could be checked also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 that's fairly common across all junk yards i've ever been too - no return on electrical parts. and understandably so actually, there's all sorts of problems with that. I didn't mean junk-yards, I meant the new parts sources - both dealers and on the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Just a thought, you may want to take the car into a shop where they can look at the ignition system using a scope. Looking at the pulses with that should indicate if there is really any trouble with the ignition. I doubt the trouble is with the CAT but that could be checked also. I suppose, they tried it at the dealer when they had a car three days ago, and decided to replace spark plugs only, but not spark plug wires or coil. It did throw the cat errro code then too, but one hopes for the better and I decided not to go for the new cat then. Well, it's now in the shop getting new cat... There was some rattling sound coming from exhaust before, but I did not connect it... We'll see whether new cat does indeed fix it. The tech explained that if the cat is clogged, it may be shooting exhaust back into the engine, leading to misfire... It did drive like a charm on its way to shop though, but I decided to bite the bullet, and go for it. Edited February 12, 2010 by 740gle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 Well, got new cat, it's still doing it. It is in the shop now, and they say, that they were able to reproduce the problem, and they ran diagnostic, and it showed that coolant temp. sensor, cioil, wires, spark plugs are all good. They suspect it's the sticky valves and suggest pulling the heads again and cleaning the valves. It did have a headgaskets, seals, belts, etc... replaced last April. Would it make sense to replace the valves instead of cleaning them? Or would it be better to try to find a used engine and swap it? It has 134Kmiles on it now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I really dont like this shop. No reason for it to need an engine. Who did the heads the first time, a valve job should have been done then. What diagnostic tests did they run after they soaked you for a cat? HOw did they come to the conclusion all of a sudden it is dirty valves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 I really dont like this shop. No reason for it to need an engine. Who did the heads the first time, a valve job should have been done then. What diagnostic tests did they run after they soaked you for a cat? HOw did they come to the conclusion all of a sudden it is dirty valves? It's the dealer, they did the head gaskets 10kmiles ago, they did not do valve job, or any machining, they just "cleaned the heads in the cleaner", replaced the head gaskets, manifold gaskets, belts and seals. This time they excluded plugs, plug wires, coil, and coolant temp. sensor based on the Subaru diagnostic tool, that they hooked up to it. Tech claims it tests all these, and did not show anything wrong in the signals. He also checked for vacuum, and says the vacuum gauge was jumping all over the place. It defeintely sends fuel down the exhaust and plugs were soaked in fuel. So, the theory is - sticky valves, most probably exhaust valves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Misdiagnosis on the cat. USMB > Subaru tech. I'd make sure it's the valves first, they've already mis-diagnose and possibly did a poor job on the repair. I'd have a proper head gasket job done complete with valve job if the car is in decent condition over all and you plan on another 100,000+ miles out of it. They should be treating you nice after all this. Hopefully the first head gasket was under warranty (Subaru had an extended head gasket warranty to 100,000 miles on 2000-2002 models). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 Misdiagnosis on the cat. USMB > Subaru tech. I'd make sure it's the valves first, they've already mis-diagnose and possibly did a poor job on the repair. I'd have a proper head gasket job done complete with valve job if the car is in decent condition over all and you plan on another 100,000+ miles out of it. They should be treating you nice after all this. Hopefully the first head gasket was under warranty (Subaru had an extended head gasket warranty to 100,000 miles on 2000-2002 models). How would you make sure it's definitely valves? I'd like to keep it for another 40-50Kmiles. I doubt it'll last longer, there s some rust on it at places, but it looks decent overall... No, the first gasket was 10Kmiles ago, ca. 125K... I did get some 10% coupon discount on it though, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 Misdiagnosis on the cat. USMB > Subaru tech. . Do you mean the first time when they replaced the plugs? Actually, they did suggest the cat needs to be changed, there was a OBD code raised for it, but I decided not to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Since the vacuum gauge was jumping around it does sound like sticking valves. Finding the plugs soaked with fuel seems strange though. I would have to wonder if the fuel pressure regulator is doing its job in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatswhatshesaid Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Finding the plugs soaked with fuel seems strange though. I would have to wonder if the fuel pressure regulator is doing its job in that case. That is weird. You might be dealing with multiple issues here...(although that's usually not the answer - the simplest solution is usually the correct one) My money is on VALVES. Vacuum issues confirm this. how much fuel is pissing out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
740gle Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 That is weird. You might be dealing with multiple issues here...(although that's usually not the answer - the simplest solution is usually the correct one) My money is on VALVES. Vacuum issues confirm this. how much fuel is pissing out there? Last time I've started it there were drops coming out the exhaust, and my brand new cat was glowing red after about 2-3 minutes of running rough... It's getting a valve job now... They also offered me a new reman Subaru engine with 3-36 warranty, but that was around $6k, and take a week, so I opted for fixing this one. I also asked them to change other things - water pump, thermostat, etc.. as a PM. They are still original. I'l let you guys know how it goes. Thank for all your help, guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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