NorthWet Posted December 15, 2010 Share Posted December 15, 2010 My take here is that with your (relative) youth you have lots of enthusiasm but would benefit from gaining perspective. This is merely an observation and not a putdown; Perspective is a lifelong pursuit, often gained at the expense of enthusiasm. Your enthusiasm has you asking questions in ways that almost invite hecklers. My advice is ignore the heckles and look for the pearls of knowledge. Possible Pearls: Make sure that everything works RIGHT before making any changes. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to track down a problem when you don't know if it ever worked right. A cooling fault is the quickest path to a dead EA82. Maintain the cooling system, consider an oil cooler, and an intercooler on the turbo engine are recommended. Performance parts are practically nonexistent for this engine. The only (commonly) known source in the USA is Ram Engines: they modify the EA series for aircraft use. They have some interesting stuff, but it is VERY pricey. IIRC, Ram uses Wiseco forged pistons, so you may be able to source pistons from Wiseco (good luck). The bottom end (rods/crank/block) are generally considered strong enough for any likely power that would run through them. The only time I have heard of broken rods was when a bearing seized. The "head gasket" tends to be a weak point. (Opinions will differ as to why.) Unless this issue is addressed you will probably have blown HGs at some point in time. The turbo-side head tends to crack at the exhaust port. Most seem to think it is a casting-design flaw. (I differ.) Many think that the head can't "flow" worth a darn. In some ways they are right, in other ways it is relative and they lack perspective. An exhaust system that flows better is not that helpful. Pretty much every person that is new to engines thinks that this gizmo or that gizmo will transform their machine. The truth is more complex, as an engine is like an orchestra, where all of the parts need to act in concert. Exhaust changes really need intake and cam changes (at least) to see much benefit. GD can be overbearing and insulting. That does not mean that his information is wrong. Separate his opinions from his information; if his information is not relevant, ignore it. (Pretty much goes for anybody...) Just because I am typing this doesn't meant that any of it is true or relevant. I only think that I know what I am talking about, as everything is viewed from my perspective. (Pretty much goes for anybody...) I regularly have to pull my foot out of my mouth or my head out of my... well, you know where. Enough drivel... on to my opinions. IF you modify, you might want to make sure that the main/rod bearings are in good shape. Loose clearances have been accused of causing oil starvation to specific rod bearings, causing seizure and ventilated blocks. Also, make sure that your oil pump is at least resealed. There are at least 2 different castings for the turbo pistons, with the later one having more material (and presumably more strength) in the crown-to-skirt area. These MIGHT be less prone to collapsed ring lands that others have reported. They are also less costly than the $500-600 for a set of forged pistons. I have heard of nothing definitive about the superiority of Fel-Pro HGs over OEM. The one known advantage is that Fel-PRo says that you don't have to retorque the heads after a warmup cycle. (A pain with the engine installed and having to reseal the cam tower.) Many people torque the headbolts to higher than specified values, typically 65-75ft-lbs. The major risk here is pulling the threads out of the block. There are ways to minimize this risk. A few months ago I started a Thread hoping to gather information and opinion about weaknesses in the EA82 and how they might be dealt with. Might be worth looking through. Good luck, and remember that it is your car and your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 Doesn't bother me a bit actually. I help those willing to listen. The rest don't have a firm grip on reality and/or have belief systems that don't agree with the mainstream here..... there are always going to be those folks. Eventually they leave or they find out the people here were right and trying to help so they stick around. Sounds like you are leaning toward the former. This is a forum - it's where opinions are expressed and where people go to find answers (which are very often opinions themselves) - you are free to provide your opinions and to also to get out in the garage and try some stuff - prove me wrong! GD Excuse me GOD, can you solve world hunger why you're at it? Get off the soap box Rick. Speaking of losing their grip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 Excuse me GOD, can you solve world hunger why you're at it? Such is not my calling in life. Get off the soap box Rick. Speaking of losing their grip... LOL. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eulogious Posted December 16, 2010 Share Posted December 16, 2010 Wow, gotta love the all the hate for the ea82t sometimes I am not going to get into what you should do with the motor of the car, that seems to be well covered here be some folks already. I will throw one more link in here that may be helpful, and is a little more in depth to what northwet has said. He started the thread, but lots of people chime in and talk about the ea82 in general. It's a good read and gives lots of background: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115825 Took a little bit of digging, but I found it. Thought it might be helpful and give you some good background on why people have said what they have about the ea82t. I will reply in your other thread regarding leaving... Good luck with what ever you do man! Have fun with the ea82t, it's a fun motor while it last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted December 28, 2010 Author Share Posted December 28, 2010 hey people, im back. i was wondering, would it hurt anything if i wanted to run the higher compression pistons and rings from a non turbo EA82 in my Turbo EA82? it wont burn holes in my pistons or burn up the valves will it? just wondering. didnt do it, fyi, just a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 Expect different answers from different people... Without making any other modifications this is not a good idea. Due to high charge temperatures you will have trouble with detonation. I would consider an intercooler to be a must if you do this. I personally would do (and plan to do) other things. Several people on the board have done this before, with various degrees of success. Most attempts have resulted in broken motors. I think that calebz has had the most success. I think that you should read the thread, "The EA82 is a Bad Engine Because..." if you haven't already done so. Don't let the title put you off: I picked it to get noticed by certain members. It does contain information that you would find useful, plus introduce some members and their views. Good luck, have fun, and ask questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted December 28, 2010 Author Share Posted December 28, 2010 Expect different answers from different people... Without making any other modifications this is not a good idea. Due to high charge temperatures you will have trouble with detonation. I would consider an intercooler to be a must if you do this. I personally would do (and plan to do) other things. Several people on the board have done this before, with various degrees of success. Most attempts have resulted in broken motors. I think that calebz has had the most success. I think that you should read the thread, "The EA82 is a Bad Engine Because..." if you haven't already done so. Don't let the title put you off: I picked it to get noticed by certain members. It does contain information that you would find useful, plus introduce some members and their views. Good luck, have fun, and ask questions. yes i have read that thread, the whole thing, really didnt like the stuff i read. but maybe i should read it again. its been a while. but yeah, i planned on putting on an inter cooler anyway. im putting on a air/water inter cooler. and im aware of the detonation issue that would incur from using the higher compression rings/pistons. i just make up for that by using higher octane (premium) gasoline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 (edited) Since the base, lower compression EA82T is already supposed to use premium, you might not get too much protection from running premium... It has been posted by at least one reliable member that, without an intercooler, the throttle-body air-temperature can be at least 250degF. Gives you some idea how far you need to lower things. You might also want to consider a better turbocharger, as the original is not all that efficient, causing increased charge temps. A TD04 is a common upgrade, though it needs a slightly different uppipe mount. An additional risk is the temptation to overboost... Oilcooler, maybe supplemental engine cooling are both good ideas. Might want to look into the SAAB detonation control used in some of their early turbos: It backs off the boost when it senses detonation. I would also start with a freshened engine: If you notice, most of the horror stories and/or broken engines start out as tired engines that someone started playing with. IMHO, new rod and main bearings and properly working oil pump are critical. I suspect that some of the broken piston lands might have started out as ring issues (stuck and/or broken rings) so clean ring grooves and new rings would also be up there. I personally believe that there are some serious cooling system issues on the EA82. I seem to be alone in this belief, but the major contrary argument seems to be that it worked in the EA81 and the EA82 is almost the same. Not a convincing argument from an engineer's point of view. The flip side of this is that almost everybody says to watch the cooling system, as an overheat will blow the headgaskets and/or crack the heads. Hmmm, my Datsuns in 30 years of driving never lost a headgasket, and they have suffered several overheats. A bit of apples-and-oranges comparison, but an indicator. The thread that I started has a lot of chaffe, and a lot of dissenting views, but it does give a laundry list of where things can break, and possible when and how. My biggest disappointment is that most of the people that said it broke really didn't look into why, or often even question why. "Head cracked; everybody knows the castings are bad" dismisses so much, like which one?. "HG blew"... which one? "Broken piston ring land"... which one, and was the oil ring gummed up and the compression ring broken? So much data is missing so that it can't be correlated and analyzed. Easier to dismiss the engine as a poor design that will break on you. The EA82 is not a great design: Subaru isn't going to go looking for old, used blocks to make the next Formula-! killer-turbo-engine like BMW did with their 1500 4-cyl. But I think that it has a bad reputation due to its transitional nature and the economy of the times. A few minor tweaks might go a long way with it. Edited December 28, 2010 by NorthWet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted December 28, 2010 Author Share Posted December 28, 2010 ok, what exactly is so bad about the stock turbos? do they not produce enough to actually do any good? are they a POS that break often? and how much is that TD04 gonna cost? o.o and trust me, i wouldnt over boost it, i really actually dont want to do to much to this motor, i just bought this car cause i love these station wagons and wanted to be able to enjoy it for what it is, a turbo Subaru Station wagon which i have wanted my whole love. (plus my girlfriend totally digs it. *thumbs up*) but yeah, if i ever did get one of those TD04's what would be the recommended boost? by your opinion that is. and like i said before, im gonna be running a air/water intercooler, which unless im convinced to do otherwise, is gonna be the only non factory thing im gonna do, cause i just straight up cant stand the idea that subaru made it to where that hot air coming from the turbo goes straight into the motor. oh, and i am starting "fresh" with the motor. i bought a motor from the junk yard for only 250 dollars when i first signed up for this place (that when people started giving me hell about the EA82) i have completely disassembled it and im going to fully rebuild it. oh, and forgot to mention that it has 60,000 less miles then the motor in the car that i just bought and am talking about. oh, and just found out today after more "checking out" of the motor and block. the car i bought, i bought it cause of a blown head gasket right? well i think wrong, whether the guy knew it or not, he over heated the car soo badly that it cracked the cylinder wall in piston number 3. the guy told me it overheated cause the thermostat stuck. but yeah, im done talking now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 (edited) ok, what exactly is so bad about the stock turbos? do they not produce enough to actually do any good? are they a POS that break often? and how much is that TD04 gonna cost? o.o and trust me, i wouldnt over boost it, i really actually dont want to do to much to this motor, i just bought this car cause i love these station wagons and wanted to be able to enjoy it for what it is, a turbo Subaru Station wagon which i have wanted my whole love. (plus my girlfriend totally digs it. *thumbs up*) but yeah, if i ever did get one of those TD04's what would be the recommended boost? by your opinion that is. and like i said before, im gonna be running a air/water intercooler, which unless im convinced to do otherwise, is gonna be the only non factory thing im gonna do, cause i just straight up cant stand the idea that subaru made it to where that hot air coming from the turbo goes straight into the motor. oh, and i am starting "fresh" with the motor. i bought a motor from the junk yard for only 250 dollars when i first signed up for this place (that when people started giving me hell about the EA82) i have completely disassembled it and im going to fully rebuild it. oh, and forgot to mention that it has 60,000 less miles then the motor in the car that i just bought and am talking about. oh, and just found out today after more "checking out" of the motor and block. the car i bought, i bought it cause of a blown head gasket right? well i think wrong, whether the guy knew it or not, he over heated the car soo badly that it cracked the cylinder wall in piston number 3. the guy told me it overheated cause the thermostat stuck. but yeah, im done talking now. The IHI RB5 (V7?) turbo (hope I got it right, did it from memory; don't want to get flamed) is a fairly old design with little data on it (no flow maps and such). Nothing horrible with it, pretty sturdy unit, just a little strained for the EA82 (EA82 doesn't seem to spend much time in good area of its flow "map".) High boost pressures (not much above stock) tend to have no flow increase, just a temperature increase. TD04 is a pretty popular upgrade, IIRC it was stock on the WRX and is commonly tossed aside by WRX owners wanting more. (Can be had with very low miles for $100-200.) Newer design, known flow maps, and various mods available for it. Another option might be the VF11 (again, IIRC) that came on the early turbo Legacies. Both are just newer, better designs. The overboost issue is just because the newer turbos CAN produce more boost/flow. So easy just to want a littttllleee more... Many (you have heard from them) think that the EA82 is "unsafe at any boost". Stock 7-8Psi, cooled down, is OK for the stock low-comp motor. I have my doubts what boost could be used on a high-compression motor.. this goes back to my cooling system concerns. My original thoughts was just to use the turbo for VE compensation so that I could spin the engine faster. Now, I think I know how to help te engine live with higher ("normal") boost lower in the RPM range. (Just need time and money and a few of my sacrificial engines to refine the ideas.) BTW, I have never seen a cracked cylinder wall or block on an EA series engine. A couple of new people have claimed that their block was cracked, but no evidence. I would REALLY be surprised to see a cracked iron liner in an aluminum block. Not saying that it can't happen, though. Edited December 30, 2010 by NorthWet Misidentified the stock turbo as an RB7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 These heads probably don't flow that well. It would take more boost to push air through the ports. More boost = higher temps. anyone try porting or extrude honing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 These heads probably don't flow that well. It would take more boost to push air through the ports. More boost = higher temps. anyone try porting or extrude honing? I would think that there would be little to gain by it. Any improvement would probably be less than an extra PSI of boost. More efficient turbo and intercooling would be cheaper and easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 Certainly any work done to the stock heads would be an improvement. Anyone try porting at home? A good flowing head would make more power with less boost. Less boost=lower temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted December 29, 2010 Author Share Posted December 29, 2010 Certainly any work done to the stock heads would be an improvement. Anyone try porting at home? A good flowing head would make more power with less boost. Less boost=lower temps. yes, i would love to know if this is a good idea for the heads. i have a friend that has all the stuff to port and polish the heads for my soobie. would it be a good idea to have that done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 Wow! Interesting thread! I'm with Northwet on the cooling. Make sure your cooling system is top notch. I don't experience or know-how as many of the experienced folks here. I do know that the finger points a lot to the radiator. What I'd do? 1) Full tune-up, 2) Oil cooler, 3) Tranny cooler, 4) New radiator, 5) intercooler, Intercooler, INTERCOOLER Northwet mentioned the thread about intake temperatures. (Searched) For the life of me, I could not find it just now. At work so can't search as thorough as I want. It is a MUST read. Great info on just how hot the air is going into your intake without an intercooler. 6) Professional clean your fuel injectors This is a personal one for me. Over and over and over and OVER and OvER.....did I say Over? I keep seeing people say their headgasket fail by #1 ane #3 cylinders. I sent my fuel injectors for my RX turbo and XT6 to RC Engineering to be cleaned. They were numbered before sending them. Both #1 and #3 fuel injectors were in poor condition when compared to the rest of the injectors. Is this the cause of headgasket failures and such by lack of fuel on that side or is this the result of bad cooling and overheating in the #1/#3 cylinder areas? I've no clue! But bad fuel injectors do not help the situation. Get them cleaned before playing with any more power or just get some new ones. The stockers don't flow high (185CC) as it is. This is all for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 Oh yeah, what is the bit about the heads not flowing well? I keep reading this but I have not seen any data that supports this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nug Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 yes, i would love to know if this is a good idea for the heads. i have a friend that has all the stuff to port and polish the heads for my soobie. would it be a good idea to have that done? If done correctly, you will see gains. For the most gain for the least effort, look into "pocket porting". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBGKP4nqcGE Here's a good article. Read the captions under the pictures, too. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0602em_cylinder_head_porting/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 Oh yeah, what is the bit about the heads not flowing well? I keep reading this but I have not seen any data that supports this. Compared to a brand-new, cutting-edge head design the EA82 head would not flow well. As I see it, it is what it is: No use comparing it to an F1 engine's head. Again, if we are talking a forced-induction engine with low specific output (high-perf NA standard was 100 HP/L... 40 years ago!), then there is little point in the expense and effort to port the head. Especially when you consider the passage contortions dictated by the design and the siamesed exhaust port. Fluidics is not simple, so you are probably more likely to reduce the flow than improve it by any porting and/or polishing that you do. If you want performance, bridge the exhaust port divider all the way out to the port's flange so that you can run individual header pipes to the turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 (edited) Compared to a brand-new, cutting-edge head design the EA82 head would not flow well. As I see it, it is what it is: No use comparing it to an F1 engine's head. I'm still confused! What is considered a good flowing head for the time it was made (Late 80's)? How do we know the EA82-T is poor flowing vs a good flowing head at that time? Comparing it to a late model STi isn't fair. For it's time, is it considered a poor flowing or good flowing cylinder head and why? Without a flow bench, is there some characteristic that someone can point out and say, 'See, when this happens, this is how you can tell the EA82-T has a poor flowing cylinder head for a late 80's vehicle'? I haven't seen this anywhere. Sure, it has limitations as far as head gaskets, pistons, etc. But the head design being a limiting factor or poor flowing. How do we know this? Edited December 29, 2010 by Myxalplyx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 Whoa! Just trying to give the possible reasoning behind why someone would say it is poor flowing. I could argue that its contemporaries at Nissan and Toyota used technically better head designs that probably flowed much better, but I don't like to argue, and in the end it is pointless. The EA82 head is what it is: Better than some, not better than others. It is adequate for its purposes. And, as pointed out, without a flowbench all is just speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 It's the shared exhaust port (less cooling time between exhaust pulse exposure), and the two-valve design. Good designs from the '80's were running multiple intake and exhaust valves like the EJ's. The EJ18 has the same heads as the EJ22 - 4 valves per cylinder. That's good flow for a 1.8. Even the Justy engine had two intake valves making it a 9 valve engine. To some extent flow is less of a problem with forced induction - but since the EA82T can't really handle much in that respect either due to its other issues...... High compression and turbo's don't mix - you can't easily remove the heat of compression (which rises exponentially with compression increase but linearly with pounds of boost). You can easily cool the air from a turbo. That is why the engineers lower the compression of these engines. You can add fuel to cool it or do some exotic stuff like alcohol injection but they aren't good choices for a daily. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted December 29, 2010 Share Posted December 29, 2010 If your really serious about power. Why not try and go standalone? so far my car is running on one and its doing good. Errr, well until the transmission decided to shatter its pinion for no good reason. Ive about had it with the ea-82t, I sense a GC in my hands in the future My car had stuff already done to it, WRX intercooler, and WRX turbo, when I first got it, I went boost happy and decided to up the boost, car ran great for about 4 weeks, then blew exhaust gaskets. I said no prob, then every stud pulled from the head. At the same time, the wonderful 80s sensor issues that every late 80s car will have, started happening to me, so I slammed an ms2v3 in it, and I am happy so far. I havent had the best of luck with my car. It is a clean body for its age, but the powerplant is giving me nightmares. Oh yeah, and I have a Techworks oldschool header, and ebay wrx downpipe. Did I help you at all, probably not, but its been a while since Ive typed anything long If I were you, I would go get maximum boost my Corky Bell, by far the best forced induction book you will ever read, it will open your eyes from seeing what they do on fast and the furious, to "oh this is how you have to do it". You can make ANYTHING fast, its just a question on how long. Rally Russ was quoted by... the name escapes me, but it was something like 900 bucsk 4 years ago for me to have forged pistons made for it, so I abandoned the idea. Anyways, dont leave, I like to lurk around here, and chime in when I know about the subject. If you want to ride in a real fast subaru, come down here, Merkatroid's rs will be running soon... you wana talk about a fast car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 (edited) Hrrmm....so what about this mid-14 second XT turbo? It is not 12-13 second in the 1/4 mile fast but it is fast for an 80's car and quick even by todays standards. Thoughts? I'll take an RX turbo that could pull these times. It would probably be lighter than this XT too. Gawd, I want a fast RX turbo so bad. Fast and reliable. I mean, not just toy with the engine but lighten the car as well. Get a lighter pulley! Get some lighter (hard as hell to find) wheels than stock and make the tire diameter slightly smaller for lower gearing. Stuff like that! Think there's a lot left on the table. The RX I had was fun as hell and I actually didn't have much of any problems out of it...then it just rusted to death. Guess the problems were right around the corner. Ran nicely though. Heck, my wife even kind a liked it and she likes none of my Subarus. The son moon and stars must've matched up or something. Edited December 30, 2010 by Myxalplyx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 Oh...and don't forget the mighty WJM and his exploits. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=35966&highlight=dyno "234 hp and 312 tq at the crank." That's a LOT of power out of this lightweight, low power vehicle. That's like taking a 300hp STI up to 600hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted December 30, 2010 Share Posted December 30, 2010 It has been posted by at least one reliable member that, without an intercooler, the throttle-body air-temperature can be at least 250degF. Gives you some idea how far you need to lower things. You might also want to consider a better turbocharger, as the original is not all that efficient, causing increased charge temps. A TD04 is a common upgrade, though it needs a slightly different uppipe mount. An additional risk is the temptation to overboost... Found the thread -- > http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=15554 It has been bothering me that it was being a little elusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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