kklsmith Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Have a 93 Loyale that has recently developed a battery drain problem. Battery is brand new as in less than 30 days. Battery drains overnight or at least when it hasn't been driven in several days. I can jumpstart the car, drive around town, and the battery charges. But then after sitting for several days - it will drain down to nothing. I'm the original owner of the 17 year old teenager so I know the alternator is the original. Also, just so you know - I'm not electrically literate so bare with me if I ask a lot of secondary - what's that?/where's that? questions. Where to start? Edited January 18, 2011 by kklsmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If you don't have an electrical multimeter that reads volts and amps, get one at Harbor Freight or anywhere else. They shouldn't run more than $20 and they're quite useful. If you feel flush spend a little more for a digital version; it's much easier to use. Disconnect the negative terminal from the battery and put the meter on the high amps range (DC amps) and see if there's any current (amps) registering on the meter (red lead to the minus terminal on the battery and black lead on the cable). If nothing registers, repeat in a lower current range; repeat again in the lowest range if you still get nothing. Normally with the ignition and all accessories off, you might get a reading around 100 milli-amps (milli-amp=1/1000th of an amp). If you get more than 1/2 amp current draw with everything off, you have find out where that's going and we can discuss that in another post. If you don't see much current draw, put the negative terminal back on the battery and remove the meter and set it to DC volts; set it to a range that will read from 10 to 20 volts or thereabouts. Start the car (in neutral or park) and measure the voltage from + to - on the battery (black lead to minus and red lead to +). At idle the battery voltage should measure around 12V and maybe up to 13V. Have someone in car increase the engine RPM to about 2000. The battery voltage measured should climb to 13 to 14.5V at the increased RPM. If it doesn't get above 13V, the alternator isn't putting out enough voltage. Either the alternator belt is loose or the alternator is bad. If the alternator is okay (based on the voltage measurements) and there's minimal current drain as measured in paragraph one, the battery is likely bad and should be replaced since it's not holding a charge. Not unusual, even for a new battery, especially in the winter when it gets down to freezing or worse. I went through two "new" batteries last winter from Schmuck's before I got a good one. Of course, you can always take the car back to where you bought the battery and have them check it (usually done free by any reputable shop), but then you wouldn't have learned anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 +1 The maximum draw you should see should be no more than 20-30 mili-amps. Even with a stereo/ clock, it shouldn't be much higher. 50-100 will kill a battery in a few days, over 100 will kill it in 24 hours. If it's more that that, start by unbolting the battery wire from the alternator and recheck the draw. If it's the same, go to the fuse block and take the fuses out one at a time, checking the draw EACH time you pull a fuse. When the draw stops, see what items the fuse powers and then you'll have a better idea of the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Here is a link that can help you understand and find this trouble. http://www.aa1car.com/library/battery_runs_down.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Here is a link that can help you understand and find this trouble. http://www.aa1car.com/library/battery_runs_down.htm Nice link; should go into the USRM for safe keeping. Also I stopped at Harbor Freight yesterday; their cheap multi-meters start at $2.99 and go up to $20 with a fairly decent digital mm at $30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Tnanks for the replies. I bought a GE 2524 Digital multi-meter and I guess GE expects you to be electrical symbol literate because the instructions didn't explain the symbols on the meter. Finally tracked them down on the net - so I know what the symbols mean. Friday - I jumped the car again, drove it around, and let it run for awhile in the driveway. Got the meter to start the trouble shoot, went to open the hood and happen to notice two broken wires that appear to be out of a connector that should have 3 wires. A little investigation found they were wires from the electrical plug for the driver's side automatic seat belts which had stopped working months back. It stayed in the locked position so I didn't worry about it - just unhooked/hooked the shoulder belt and figured it was wear/tear from being 17years old. But since it sits just above the clutch and at shoe tip level, I think it was wear/tear from my foot. The empty connectors had reminants of broken wire in them and these were the only two loose wires with exposed wiring. Reconnected the wires to their connectors and low & behold my driver seat belt works again as does the associated ding-ding sound. Then I was called away to run errands for family. Saturday - battery wasn't drained/car started fine, but didn't drive it since I had too many errands to run and they required the van. Sunday/this morning, went out and started the Subie since we would need two vehicles for church and I wanted to make sure it started before family left. Started and ran fine. Then when it came time to depart, it restarted fine and ran for @ 15 seconds and suddenly died. Turns over but wouldn't start. I did not/do not hear the familar hum of the fuel pump when I turn the key on. Pulled the fuse cover and the fuel pump fuse looks fine and intact. Checked fusable links under hood and they appear fine. My next look is for the fuel relay. [B]Is there a way to use the multi-meter to check whether or not the relay is working properly? [/b]Or does this require a buy & replace test? Could my reattachment of the two loose wires cause the lack of fuel problem? Edited January 9, 2011 by kklsmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Where is the fuel relay? I removed the panel cover beneath the steering wheel and looked around with a flashlight. Couldn't see any relays anywhere. IS it true this relay is $115!!!!!! I thought a relay was nothing more than a suped-up fuse with an open/close gate? I remember buying one for my old VW Jetta for $15. Ken Edited January 10, 2011 by kklsmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Where is the fuel relay? I removed the panel cover beneath the steering wheel and looked around with a flashlight. Couldn't see any relays anywhere. IS it true this relay is $115!!!!!! I thought a relay was nothing more than a suped-up fuse with an open/close gate? I remember buying one for my old VW Jetta for $15. Ken I can't help you on the location for the fuel pump relay. But if anyone knows whether any of the EA81 or EJ relays are the same I might be able to get you one for cheap. I have a collection of them from the local Pull a Part yards. In either event, I would suggest a junk yard relay rather than spending $115 for a dealer purchased one. Edited January 10, 2011 by edrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacyork Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 the fuel pump relay is above the ecu mounted on top of the steering column. you gotta unbolt the computer to get to it. you can bypass the relay temporarily to see if its bad. just take a paper clip and bend it into a u shape, unplug the relay and take the paperclip and put it into the wiring harness. one side power in and the other power out. there is usually schematic on the relay itself to show you which wire is power and which one goes to the pump. if there is no schematic you can always grab a wiring diagram online. now there are 2 relays right next to eachother where it is mounted but i dont remember which one is the fuel pump. good luck:headbang: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thanks! I'll try the paper clip test. This oughta be just fun in single digit weather! Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacyork Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 good luck ken. if you have any problems with doing this let me know and i can give you a step by step. i can always go outside and find out which wires are what on my EA for ya. im unemployed right now so i have nothing better to do:popcorn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Disconnect the negative terminal from the battery and put the meter on the high amps range (DC amps) and see if there's any current (amps) registering on the meter (red lead to the minus terminal on the battery and black lead on the cable). If nothing registers, repeat in a lower current range; repeat again in the lowest range if you still get nothing. Normally with the ignition and all accessories off, you might get a reading around 100 milli-amps (milli-amp=1/1000th of an amp). If you get more than 1/2 amp current draw with everything off, you have find out where that's going and we can discuss that in another post. Finally was able to do this. On my multi-meter the choices of settings are 10A, 200m, 20m, 2000u, & 200u. Hooked up my multimeter and set it to 200m - reading was 165.7 - What does this mean or should I use another setting? Nothing was turned on - no keys in ignition. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 167 milliamps-too many Lucky it wasn`t over 200ma.Most likely you would have blown the meter fuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 So something is stuck on and draining the battery? Time to start pulling fuses and checking battery drain? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 So something is stuck on and draining the battery? Time to start pulling fuses and checking battery drain? Ken Yes,try unplugging the alternator too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yep, refer back to my first post and follow the steps. Way too high a drain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 First thing I pulled was the alternator connections - no change. Appears that the culprit curcuit is the Hazard/Horn/Clock circuit. At least according to the chart on the fuse box cover. When I pulled it -the meter read 00.3. I went thru the rest of the fuses and then went back and doubled checked. Second reading with that fuse pulled was still 00.3 I do have one of those notorious Loyale clocks that no longer keep accurate time. Always a different time when the key is turned on. So where to from here? Disconnect the clock from it's back side and see if it's the lone culprit? Hazards work - horn beeps. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 You need to individually unplug each seperate item that fuse feeds. A wiring diagram would be helpful here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 I have a Chiltons and I just found the wiring diagram. I think I will wait till tomorrrow before tackling that. It's 7 degrees and I'm doing this outside - in the 20's tomorrow. I'm leaving the neg terminal off the batt so it doesn't get drained. Thanks for everyone's help. I still have the lack of fuel issue to deal with also. Will try a hot wire in the fuel relay place to see if it's pump or relay. Can't imagine a relay costing more than the actual pump. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I have a Chiltons and I just found the wiring diagram. I think I will wait till tomorrrow before tackling that. It's 7 degrees and I'm doing this outside - in the 20's tomorrow. I'm leaving the neg terminal off the batt so it doesn't get drained. Thanks for everyone's help. I still have the lack of fuel issue to deal with also. Will try a hot wire in the fuel relay place to see if it's pump or relay. Can't imagine a relay costing more than the actual pump. Ken Good work so far. Sounds to me like the clock is the most likely culprit, but we'll see. As to the cost of the relay, have you checked the price of the fuel pump lately. Individual parts can be pretty pricey. One of the reasons I check the wrecking yard before I go for expensive items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 I live in Montana, my town has maybe 2 junk yards and Subies are a rare find there, however I will keep that in mind if it is indeed the fuel pump. Back in 02 I did find a replacement MOS there for $80 and so far it has worked fine. Just checked the prices on the fuel pump again - wow. Could have sworn yesterday I saw it on-line for $79. Now they're 250 - 290? What's the difference between a 90 Loyale fuel pump and the 93 fuel pump - they look the same but about $200 difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I assume you are having a current drain problem on fuse #5. If so the most likely trouble spots are the radio, clock, and door chime. I would try the chime first as a best guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Started with the clock - disconnected it from its power harness and the drain went away. The circuitry board on the clock was darkly discolored in one place as was the display. No discernable battery drain left. Left me wondering how can something so minute drain that much charge. On a lark, I connected the battery and turned the key. The fuel pump came right on and she fired up and runs fine. Obviously something I need to keep an eye on since before the pump didn't even come on - perhaps something due to our sub-zero temps the last few days. But it's been since the 1970's since I had an actual fuel line freeze and it ain't even what I consider cold yet. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Good going there Ken. You might check the fusible links and make sure there are no loose connections to them. As for the current draw that wasn't too much really but it is way to high for normal draw while the car is parked and will kill the battery in not too long of time. Edited January 13, 2011 by Cougar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kklsmith Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 This morning I went out to start the my Loyale and once again the battery is dead. It's been starting fine and been running around town since I thought the problem was rectified on the 12th. I jumped started it and letting it run. I took multi-meter measurements and the alternator is putting out 14.5 DC volts to the battery - which I take from reading as being acceptable. However, when I switched the meter to AC Volts at took a reading at the AC Volt 200 setting on my multi meter, I got a reading of 30.1. Did several readings as it's consistant at that reading. The reading was taken at idle. Since I'm the only one at home, I haven't checked at higher RPMs. Is this indicative of the diodes gone bad in the alternator? Thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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