93 Legacy AT filter or screen?

[SubaruFred]

Thanks for all your help. Now all I need is some better weather and I can get all this sorted out. One last question... what is your opinion on Trans-X? I've seen some very good arguments both for and against it's use. Normally I avoid these kind of additives but I can also see how it could potentially be beneficial in an old, high mileage trans. I plan to use regular Dex III ATF, not the high-mileage stuff so I wouldn't be doubling up on the seal conditioners.

 

I think you'll miss all the icy fun thursday night. Have a safe trip.

[Rooster2]

Thanks for all your help. Now all I need is some better weather and I can get all this sorted out. One last question... what is your opinion on Trans-X? I've seen some very good arguments both for and against it's use. Normally I avoid these kind of additives but I can also see how it could potentially be beneficial in an old, high mileage trans. I plan to use regular Dex III ATF, not the high-mileage stuff so I wouldn't be doubling up on the seal conditioners.

 

I think you'll miss all the icy fun thursday night. Have a safe trip.

 

I am the guy who wrote the original thread about using Trans-X on this forum. It has been a god send to people with years 99 & 00 auto tranies, that have a particular shifting problem due to a defective seal. However, you don't have this problem, so I would vote NO on using Trans-X. Like you stated, you don't need seal added conditioners that Trans-X provides.

 

Recommend three successive ATF changes for your car, with short drives between drains. You will need to do three, as only about half the ATF can be drained from the trany pan at a time. The remainder stays in the torque converter. Others have removed a fluid return in order to bleed out all ATF at one sitting with the motor running. If you do this, just be sure to stay ahead of the bleed out process by adding fresh ATF during the bleed, so the trany does not run low or out of ATF.

[idosubaru]

+1 to what Rooster said - keep it simple. Don't try to fix issues you don't have with stuff you don't need. The best thing for your trans is transmission fluid. Additives, conditioners, etc are band aids, avoid them. There's a few instances when they are very helpful - I would use them only in those instances as a last resort, not as preventative maintenance or "just in case".

 

Right now it sounds like you actually don't need anything once you get the switch working properly. But a fluid change would be a good idea.

 

The binding was probably caused by poor maintenance over the life of the car at some point - lack of fluid changes, improper towing or tire tread not match, etc.

[SubaruFred]

Thanks guys. I take it that Trans-X won't help with the torque bind so I'll just change the ATF when weather permits.

 

FWIW, the PO took this car to the dealer for everything from 1999-2010. I contacted the dealer and they actually scanned and emailed me all of the service records from 2003 to present. They don't keep records longer than 7 years. Despite having the oil changed there every 5000 miles and even wiper blades installed, there is no record of an ATF change. They checked it at every oil change but never changed it even when the PO complained of TB symptoms. Anyway it was good to see that the timing belt, water pump, etc. was replaced at 145k miles. I'm at 172k now.

[SubaruFred]

Torque bind is back, occasionally. Even with the FWD fuse installed I've now had 3 separate instances of TB. My best guess is that the duty C solenoid is failing. Does anyone think that Trans-X might help or should I replace the solenoid? Where is the solenoid located? Internal or external?

 

I was thinking of draining a qt of ATF, adding Trans-X and running it for a few thousand miles before changing ATF in the spring. TIA.

[idosubaru]

As already stated Trans X is unlikely to help (it'd be the first i've heard). Borrowing a solution for one specific problem to fix a completely unrelated problem doesn't generally work.

 

Given that it now might be the failing Duty C, the solution to that is very clear, replace the solenoid. Or disengage the duty C "locking" the clutches and then disconnected the rear driveshaft so it's essentially a FWD vehicle until you have time to fix it properly....or just leave it FWD and get snow tires if needed. I'd do that if I needed to avoid the proper repair before additives.

 

Trans-x is only for the very specific case of the 99 era trans. In general additives have possible long term symptoms or complications, so they're best to avoid in all but the most dire situations. Trying a different spark plug or belt isn't a big deal - if it doesn't work out you use a different one. Additives can cause issues, swell seals that don't need swelling all without helping the original issue at all. Additives are one thing that's generally best to follow experience on and not try on anecdotal experience (or thoughts).

 

One additive that can help torque bind is a limited slip additive that can sometimes help free up sticking clutches. But it's not going to aid the Duty C solenoid at all. And I don't recommend it as I don't know the long term affects of something like that on the rest of the innards. It's a last ditch effort for a car that's not really worth putting time into. And the first step before that would be a simple fluid change.

[SubaruFred]

As already stated Trans X is unlikely to help (it'd be the first i've heard). Borrowing a solution for one specific problem to fix a completely unrelated problem doesn't generally work.

 

Given that it now might be the failing Duty C, the solution to that is very clear, replace the solenoid. Or disengage the duty C "locking" the clutches and then disconnected the rear driveshaft so it's essentially a FWD vehicle until you have time to fix it properly....or just leave it FWD and get snow tires if needed. I'd do that if I needed to avoid the proper repair before additives.

 

Trans-x is only for the very specific case of the 99 era trans. In general additives have possible long term symptoms or complications, so they're best to avoid in all but the most dire situations. Trying a different spark plug or belt isn't a big deal - if it doesn't work out you use a different one. Additives can cause issues, swell seals that don't need swelling all without helping the original issue at all. Additives are one thing that's generally best to follow experience on and not try on anecdotal experience (or thoughts).

 

One additive that can help torque bind is a limited slip additive that can sometimes help free up sticking clutches. But it's not going to aid the Duty C solenoid at all. And I don't recommend it as I don't know the long term affects of something like that on the rest of the innards. It's a last ditch effort for a car that's not really worth putting time into. And the first step before that would be a simple fluid change.

 

Well I finally got around to changing the ATF. I had intended to do a full fluid exchange but the rubber hoses that I had to remove to pump put the remaining ATF looked a bit dry-rotted and without any replacements on-hand I decided it best to leave them alone for now. So I simply drained 5 qts and added 15 oz of Trans-X and 4 qts of fresh ATF. All torque bind symptoms are gone. I can do tight figure 8s in fwd or rev with no binding.

 

It's impossible to say whether the Trans-X helped but I've read many positive reviews of the stuff on various car forums (not just certain year Outbacks) and decided to try it. In my experience most additives are more likely to do nothing than to cause harm but I am also aware of some potential risk. I have no intention of adding Trans-X to my 40k mile Scion but I did switch it from Toyota WS to M1 ATF which is like going from thin Dex 6 to Dex 4. My goal there was to increase line pressures, shear stability, film strength and torque handling capacity for the extra 100 whp from the turbo addition. 10k miles later, it's working great.

 

Anyway, thanks for the sound advice. Perhaps I should have followed it but I'm willing to take some chances with a $2000 beater. I'll be sure to post about any problems that may be attributable to the Trans-X, although after 18 years and 172k miles it's pretty hard to blame a trans failure on an additive without a thorough post-mortem examination that shows seals turned to jelly.

 

My current game plan is to change ATF again when torque bind symptoms reappear as long as that doesn't occur too frequently. As the Zen Master said: "We'll see"...

[SubaruFred]

Okay, so the torque bind still comes back but only when the duty C gets hot after extended driving (1 hour +). I'm pretty sure that I need a new duty C so I'll probably just wire the fwd fuse to a dash switch and leave it like that. Unless someone has evidence that doing so damages the transfer clutch pack after extended use.

 

The sum of my experience thus far has been that adding LSD additive did little or nothing for my TB issues, changing ATF and adding Trans-X had similar effect. The solenoid appears to be weak from age and ceases to function properly when it gets hot. Considering the mileage on the car it doesn't make sense to me to pull the extension housing to replace the duty C without replacing all related wear items.

[johnceggleston]

the switch sounds like a pretty god approach except, if the duty c fails when hot, and you flip the FWD switch, nothing will happen. if the duty c has failed it ''can't'' work.

 

if the binding is caused by something other than a ''hot'' duty c then it should work.

 

when adding the switch, you don't have to go all the way under the hood. you can ground out pin #2 on the 20 pin connector on the TCU. less wiring, but more contortions, maybe, working under the dash.

[SubaruFred]

the switch sounds like a pretty god approach except, if the duty c fails when hot, and you flip the FWD switch, nothing will happen. if the duty c has failed it ''can't'' work.

 

if the binding is caused by something other than a ''hot'' duty c then it should work.

 

when adding the switch, you don't have to go all the way under the hood. you can ground out pin #2 on the 20 pin connector on the TCU. less wiring, but more contortions, maybe, working under the dash.

 

I believe you are correct. The switch won't very well work for me as I confirmed again tonight. With the fwd fuse installed I have no TB until the duty C gets hot, then TB appears just as it does in awd mode. The only difference between fwd and awd mode with regard to torque bind are the frequency and severity of the TB. In awd mode the TB symptoms seem to occur sooner and are more severe, however in either trans mode, the symptoms still occur when the duty C is hot. I am unsure how much warm vs hot ATF plays into this but the ATF I drained recently had great color and smell.

 

I think this may be the start of some of the more severe transfer clutch damage that I've read about. If I do not replace the defective duty C I too will probably end up with scorched/damaged clutch plates, grooved baskets, etc. FWD mode won't stop this, at best it might delay it.

 

Are you aware of any complete transfer assy rebuild kits or must I order individual parts from a dealer? I think I'd like to rebuild the transfer assy in the spring.

[ShawnW]

They sell the clutches and steels for just the rear output section. I just priced it and the Duty Solenoid C the other day for a 96 and it was about 300 or so for all the parts. Also order a tube of "Fuji Bond", the Orange Silicone and use it to seal the rear section to the back of the main case. They sell a gasket, but this actually seals better IMO. Same on the pan, I use this instead. The surgery takes about 3 hours the first time you do it, and about 45 minutes the 2nd. I just replaced the rear section on the 96 one in about 20 minutes but I am a certified (ex) Subaru tech.

[SubaruFred]

They sell the clutches and steels for just the rear output section. I just priced it and the Duty Solenoid C the other day for a 96 and it was about 300 or so for all the parts. Also order a tube of "Fuji Bond", the Orange Silicone and use it to seal the rear section to the back of the main case. They sell a gasket, but this actually seals better IMO. Same on the pan, I use this instead. The surgery takes about 3 hours the first time you do it, and about 45 minutes the 2nd. I just replaced the rear section on the 96 one in about 20 minutes but I am a certified (ex) Subaru tech.

 

Thanks! Would you recommend the Fuji-bond over Permatex hi-temp copper and the right stuff (black epdm)? The right stuff worked beautifully on my Scion's oil pan and I've been using Permatex hi and ultra-hi temp copper for years now with good results.

 

Also, if I may ask your ex-Suby-tech opinion: Is it worth spending $300 to re-build only the awd transfer part of a 18 year old 173k mile 4EAT or should I consider other options like a used tranny?