ktdenali Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 2000 Outback ltd. 142000 miles. The last few weeks as I start my Subaru early in the morning I can always hear trickling noises before the car reaches operating temperatures. There has to be air or some sort of gas in a "should be airtight" cooling system. I do not know how. I took it on a longer trip and just for kicks I stopped on the interstate to check my overflow tank. For some reason my coolant in it full of bubbles. Kind of like when you're boiling eggs. I squeezed the upper and lower hoses (both hot so my thermostat is obviously not stuck shut) and with that the bubbles intensified. When I got to my destination and it cooled down, the overflow tank was very full (more than maximum) and my radiator was low as I opened it. So obviously I am not loosing any coolant anywhere, it is just acting weird. I had this problem a few thousand miles ago and someone suggested it it was combustion gases and a leaky head gasket. The head gaskets were replaced not long ago after that. Not it's acting strange again. Any ideas anyone? I could use some smart advice here. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 That engine usually has an external leak. Ends up overflowing the overflow and emptying the radiator. If you have bubbles it sounds like an internal leak, which is unusual on those engines. But if the HG was just done and it's blown again... It wasn't done right. Not a subaru gasket, put on wrong, something. More details about previous HG job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 The engine is an EJ252 I did not do the head gasket, a local Subaru mechanic did. I trust he does a good job, but who knows. he does HG's about once a week and only works on Subarus. It was done 9000 miles and or 10 months ago. I do not know any other details. I had it done because of the same issue we suspected the HG was going. Bubbles in the overflow tank and not sucking it back in the radiator when cooled down. The engine does not and never did over heat. At least right now. ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzam Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Have a hydrocarbon test done on the coolant. That will tell you if exhaust gases are getting passed the head gasket. If no gases are found then more than likely it's a different problem. Short list of other things, off the top of my head: Radiator cap. Water pump. Radiator (clogged or damaged) Cooling fan operation correct. Genuine Subaru thermostat. Bad Heater core. Also a proper burping of the cooling system is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 I put a different radiator cap on this morning so we will see. A few more things. -The radiator is almost brand new. -Cooling fans working -water pump was replaced when the HG changed Where would you have the coolant tested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I put a different radiator cap on this morning so we will see. A few more things. -The radiator is almost brand new. -Cooling fans working -water pump was replaced when the HG changed Where would you have the coolant tested? You can buy a kit, but they're rather expensive if you're just going to use it once. Take it to any local garage and they should be able to perform the test, it's pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsince77 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 As to the trickling noise, my 97 Outback did that all it's life. It was full of coolant and well burped, so I don't know what that was. The rest, well, the test will tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 I talked to another mechanic just to get a second opinion. First of all he confirmed that the one guy who did my head gaskets know what he is doing. He is a well reputed Subaru mechanic in town. There are absolutely no typical signs of a leaky head gasket, other than the bubbles in my over flow and the trickling noise, if that is even a HG symptom. -no over heating -no white exhaust -no coolant smell -no leaks anywhere or loss of coolant -no milky oil, or residue on my oil cap I do not know what is going on, but this Outback is turning out to be a kind of a lemon for me. Makes me wonder if the newer they get the worse they are. I have not done the exhaust testing yet. So far 2 out of 2 mechanics were either too busy or did not have the kit. I have not been able to find a place to buy the kit anywhere online, but saw traces that it may cost $50+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 You can get them at napa for around $50. When my ej22 had a bad head gasket the only symptoms were bubbles. I went ahead and replaced the gasket with no testing or anything... just assuming that was the issue, and it was. I figure I'd start seeing symptoms if I let it get worse, subaru head gasket issues are weird, and not like other cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 that's exactly what I did. Got the HG replaced just because of the bubbles, trying to be preventative. After about a year the bubbles came back. I replaced the radiator cap just last week, it was faulty. Now the trickling sound is gone but the bubbles remain. talked to my mechanic and he said he suspects it is because the time they do it the heads get resurfaced but the block itself does not. In other words there maybe micro cracks between a smooth resurfaced head and the old block. That maybe whey I still have bubbles in there, even thought the HG is new. I am starting to give up on Subarus with the 2.5s. They suck, with so many problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzam Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 So the new cap stopped the trickling noise, but does the coolant still flow out and fill the overflow? Have you considered getting the hydrocarbon test done to confirm a bad head gasket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 I was wrong! Bubbles are going, and truckling noise as well every morning and every start up after cool down. So I am back to square one after an expensive head gasket change. I have no idea along with the mechanics I talked to what is going on. It is NOT overheating, and not mixing coolant with oil. urrrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 I have not got the test done on the coolant cause I have not found a place that does it. Is it expansive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 It doesn't take very long. They put the test thing in the rad cap, start the engine, and the fluid in the test thing changes colour within a minute of running. Really easy test to perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 I talked to the Subaru mechanic who did my HG's about the test. he does not seem too keen on it 'cause if my HG's were leaking again it would be very obvious. I went and got a second opinion from the Big Dog in town, another Subaru Mechanic with the big money, and he said my best tester is my nose. If those bubbles in my coolant were combustion gases it would pretty obviously stink like exhaust. It's kind of nice of them to be honest and not have me jump on the testing for $68. Since there are really no other typical signs of a leaky HG I gotta find out where on earth my system is getting air into it. I am going to try to burp it again this weekend and see if that does any good. Any thoughts, pieces of advice are welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Surprised they'd charge that much for a test. At least they aren't trying to screw you over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) I talked to the Subaru mechanic who did my HG's about the test. he does not seem too keen on it 'cause if my HG's were leaking again it would be very obvious. I went and got a second opinion from the Big Dog in town, another Subaru Mechanic with the big money, and he said my best tester is my nose. If those bubbles in my coolant were combustion gases it would pretty obviously stink like exhaust. It's kind of nice of them to be honest and not have me jump on the testing for $68. Since there are really no other typical signs of a leaky HG I gotta find out where on earth my system is getting air into it. I am going to try to burp it again this weekend and see if that does any good. Any thoughts, pieces of advice are welcome. I am not one of the uberwrenches on this board, but I have read the posts here everyday for the past eleven years. Let me say: 2000 was still a pretty bad year for internal head gasket leaks on the 2.5L SOHC. Your engine is at an elevated risk for this problem. Subaru head gasket leaks are atypical. They are not always obvious, and are often very difficult to detect. You were willing to spend $1500 for the head gasket based on symptoms alone. But you weren't willing to spend $68 on a definitive exhaust gases test to see if the $1500 head gasket repair was really necessary. You're back at square one, possibly looking at another $1500 head gasket repair and you're still not willing pay $68 for a exhaust gases test. I'll say this, you sure stick to your decisions. Get off your wallet and pay the lousy $68 for an exhaust gases test because it very well may tell you two very important things. 1. Whether, or not, you presently have a leaky head gasket and IF you have a leaky head gasket...... 2. Whether, or not, your mechanic replaced your head gaskets SUCCESSFULLY. If the head gasket repair was not successfull, the longer you monkey around with this thing , probably the less the chance that the mechanic will redo it . My dog's sense of smell is literally 1,000 times better than mine. So, maybe I'd trust him to do a "sniff" test for exhaust gases. Unfortunately, his talking and writing skills aren't so good so I don't know how he could communicate the results to me. "Sniff" test? Maybe for a BIG HONKING head gasket leak. But maybe you have a small head gasket leak. So, spend a couple of hours under the hood with a screwdriver tightening things up. But if that doesn't fix it, get a exhaust gases test done. Edited June 3, 2011 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I agree with The Dude, only way is confirm/deny HG leak of exhaust into coolant is with a tester. Some may have trained noses but I don't. This kit/fluid is less than $35 from Autozone: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Tools-Garage-and-Equipment/Block-Tester/_/N-25dh I did the test on my car (2.5L DOHC) and knew that the HGs were toast. Made making the next choice a bit easier. Its your car, make the choice thats best for your situation. I wouldn't spend $1500 without knowing for sure that the HGs leaked, a pre and post HG replacement test would give peace of mind in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 The DUDE! No I do not spend $68 easy. I neither spent $1100 easy on replacing HGs. I have been going to the same mechanic for years I trusted his advice to replace the HGs. he said sooner or later it will have to be done because Subaru majorly screwed up in those years. It is very confusing to me that all three mechanics I talked to in person here said the testing is really just a sprinkle of sugar on the cake. The problem is there seems to be no cake yet. On the other hand all other people in this forum said I should jump on the test. Kind of like the health care system, they send you for all kinds of testing for this and that and nail you with a huge bill of small items here and there. Anyway to cash out $1100 for HG change was a month salary for me, and $68 is almost a whole day of work. So don't be surprised I am not to jump on it that easy. Back to the subject. I did burp the car as I said I would. Ran it for 45 minutes saw a lot of bubbles come out and as I had the heater going full blast the coolant was continuously retrieving and I slowly filled it up. For a day or so I did not hear trickling noises but it came back. It come and goes, but is there on most cold starts. I do not know what is going on neither do all three mechanics I talked to. ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 (edited) Consider this: Did your mechanic use GENUINE Subaru head gaskets when they were replaced? Because if he didn't, he may have really reduced the odds for a successful replacement. Do a board search, don't trust me on this. Virtually every experienced wrench on this board recommends only using genuine Subaru headgaskets and warns againt using ANY after market head gasket. It tooks years, and a number of revisions, before Subaru finally hit upon the current multi-layer steel gasket. Unlike the 2.5L DOHC, your 2.5L SOHC is not a total POS. When genuine Subaru head gaskets are properly installed in the 2.5L SOHC, most reports indicate that the repair usually last the life of the car. If your mechanic didn't us genuine Subaru head gaskets are you going to hold him responsible for their failure one year later, I might ? If so, you can use the results of a exhaust gas test to argue that he should redo the head gaskets for free or at a greatly reduced rate. So, the exhaust gas test might be money well spent. What are you going to do if the heads gaskets go into full failure mode a year from now? Two years might be too long to argue that the head gasket replacement wasn't done right. Maybe your mechanic used genuine Subaru head gaskets and he did everything right. Maybe you just had a piece of bad luck. But I'll say this in all honesty, I would absolutely insist on genuine Subaru head gaskets if I needed them replaced. In any event I'm sorry to hear of your problems. Serious car problems especially suck when funds are tight. For most Americans a working car is a necessity, and a damn expensive one at that. Edited June 11, 2011 by The Dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Use the subaru brand coolant conditioner if it has not been applied already. this was subarus fix in a bottle to an inevitable annoyance. I would also suggest the liquid glass sodiam silicate type block and crack sealers. This should fix it and stop the bubbles. You need to apply this product with fresh water and no coolant, and follow the directions explicitly. Then you can use fresh coolant and the subaru coolant conditioner. This is easier than throwing a fit or blaming the mechanic. Ask him what his opinions are for it. I, myself, have had good success with such a product over many subaru engines of different years and HG symptoms. If i was your mechanic, i would suggest it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 Thanks for all the valuable advice. I agree the test results would be a good argument for more work to be done on it, if need be. I trust my mechanic pretty well. he is a nice older gentleman and has a very good reputation among other mechanics. In fact even the "big Dog" expensive Subaru mechanic in town admitted that he does a great job. I believe he used genuine Subaru HG's. Most of the parts I have got from him that I installed myself (radiator cap, thermostat, etc) were genuine parts. Some weren't I think. I.e. he put in a new front O2 sensor once that was made by BOSCH and came from carquest. He said BOSCH is very good. A new radiator we put in not long ago was a MAde in China one. But I think when it comes to something as serious as HG's, or timing belt he uses Subaru parts. I talked to him once about the Subaru coolant additive and he called it a bandaid only. In other words some liquid will not fix a engineering problem. I kind of see his point, but that is just his opinion. I think next week I will try to see how much one of those test kits cost at NAPA or Carquest. Every mechanic I asked either did not do the test or recommended against it. Also, in case the HG's are leaking again, which i hope not, I hope it will not jeopardize a good relationship with this mechanic if I have to have him do all that work all over again. Honestly I am absolutely clueless where I would constantly get bubbles in my cooling system from if it was not combustion gases. BUT: -I am not loosing any coolant -I have no exhaust smell in my coolant -my exhaust has no coolant smell -no overheating -no coolant in my oil or vise verse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rpm90001 Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Is it blowing in to your overflow bottle? Where are you actualy seeing the bubbles? In my opinion, if your cooling system is filled correctly and you are getting bubbles and or bubbling in your overflow sounds like the system is getting pressurized by a leak in the combustion chamber. You may not see it in your oil, or in your exhaust, you may not even overheat. It does seem that you should smell it in the overflow.. The combustion chamber is a lot higher pressure than your cooling system, you could have a small leak between the chamber and and water jacket causing the bubbles. You would not see oil in the antifreeze,or antifreeze in the oil, or exhaust. It just may leak under high pressure during the combustion stroke, so air keeps getting pushed in the system with no other symptoms. This is just my thought.. Hope you get it worked out and turns out to be something very simple like an air bubble in the system. That would be my first step. Be 1000 % sure there is no air in the system . Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Also, in case the HG's are leaking again, which i hope not, I hope it will not jeopardize a good relationship with this mechanic if I have to have him do all that work all over again. It's great that you have so much respect for the mechanic. I would suggest that you take the car back to him and get his input on what's happening. If he's as good and professional as he sounds, he might appreciate the chance to correct the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktdenali Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 I see the bubbles in the overflow tank. (you can see that in the earlier posts in this thread). It does another very strange thing as well. After I drove it somewhere (longer trips) the coolant does not always gets sucked back into the radiator from the overflow tank. In other words if I open my radiator once it cooled down, my radiator is low and my overflow tank is way too full. And of course no coolant loss. I have been to the mechanic at least twice and he does not know what is going on. He has not offered to redo the HG's and I have not asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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