hooziewhatsit Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 88 GL, 5 spd d/r Cranks, but won't start. problem started when after I packed the car for a trip (of course) and tried to start it. It didn't crank. Swapped the battery with a different one and it would crank, but not start. It was acting like it wasn't getting spark. The day before, I had replaced the cap & rotor. Just to check, I put the old cap & rotor back on, but nothing changed. Since I got back from the trip, I've done - Recharged the old battery, now it cranks - I pulled one spark plug to see if it was getting spark, and it was. I don't have my assistant currently, so I can't easily check the rest. - I pulled the spark plugs to check them, and one came out with gas on it. The exhaust also smells strongly of gas while cranking. - I made sure they weren't any blockages in the intake - I thought my timing belts may have slipped. With the flywheel at 20 BTDC, the rotor points at one of the spark plugs. With the flywheel at the three timing marks, the rotor points between two plugs. I assume this is how it should be? I pulled the tbelt covers off and they look like they haven't slipped. - I checked the resistance in my coil, and got: Primary: 1.1 ohm Secondary: 17.9 Kohm My book lists Primary: .84 to 1.01 ohm Secondary: 8 to 12 Kohm Could the coil be part of the problem, since neither of my resistances are within range of the 'book', especially the secondary coil. My grandpa suggested unhooking the exhaust, since too much back pressure could make it not start. Last september I had the element in the first cat come loose. I cut the cat open, removed it, then welded it shut again. I suppose pieces of it could have blocked the second cat, but there is still some air coming out the exhaust. I would check this, but the car died on an incline, and I can't quite squeeze under it, nor can I jack it up. Any other ideas? I don't have any, besides a possible faulty coil. Thanks in advance, -Dave ps, working in the snow when it's 30 F and breezy outside is fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiftt Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 When you replaced the cap and rotor, did you make sure all the wires went back where they came from? I can only think that the firing order is screwed up...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northguy Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 As I was reading, that's exactly what I was thonking - mixed up the firing order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 Since I've had trouble with the rotor screw in the past, I labeled all the wires so I would put them back correctly. Just in case, I found this thread: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=15230&highlight=firing+order and double checked the order. According to that thread, everything is correct I may have some old wires around somewhere I could try... oh yea, the plugs, cap, rotor & wires were replaced 12,000 miles ago. The plugs didn't look too bad when I pulled them. thanks, -Dave ps, yay, it's trying to snow now :-) Edit: just checked all the wires again, making sure they were connected to both the cap and the spark plugs. the resistance on three are around 5Kohm, the resistance on the long wire going to SP1 is around 18Kohm. Still no starty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Dave, First check the ignition fuse in the fuse box. If it is good then read on. The SPFI ignition system employs an ignition amplifier. This amplifier is basically a power transistor mounted on the coil bracket under the coil. The bracket must have a good ground. New ones are expensive but used ones are some what easy to come by. All SPFI and 1987 + turbo and MPFI engines have one. You can test to see if this is the problem. In a dark confined area. Pull the coil wire from the distributor. Hold it very close to a ground point - crank the engine to start. Making one of these may help. It connects between the positive battery terminal and the small connector on the starter. If the amp is the problem a very very small spark will be seen jumping to ground. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 so I should see a very small spark as compared to a big spark? I just tried that, got a good sized ( I guess) orange spark on about an 1/8th inch gap to ground. I checked all the fuses a couple days ago, but double checked them just now. They're all fine. If I can find a ride, I can probably get a whole new coil from the local junkyard for about $20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starkiller Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 probably a silly suggestion but what about timing belts? oops, didnt see where the tb covers were taken off..sorry:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 probably a silly suggestion but what about timing belts? update - I thought my timing belts may have slipped. With the flywheel at 20 BTDC, the rotor points at cylinder #2. With the flywheel at the three timing marks, the rotor points between #2 and #4. I assume this is how it should be? I pulled the tbelt covers off and they look like they haven't slipped. I have also verified that both cams are spinning with the belts. Should the rotor point at #1 when the flywheel is at 20 BTDC? \me runs off to double check Edit: As I turn the engine over, 20 BTDC points at either #1 or #2, which should be correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiftt Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 If your timing is set to 20* BTDC, the rotor should point to #1 on the cap when this timing mark is lined up. In other words, when the #1 piston is 20* BTDC, the #1 spark plug should be firing. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 you will want to check your timing distributor alignment to 0degbtdc. the rotor will point to #1 cyl, its the farthest back terminal on the cap, the rotor will point to the hill holder spring the firing is 1324, #1 is on the passenger side front cyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 you will want to check your timing distributor alignment to 0degbtdc. the rotor will point to #1 cyl, its the farthest back terminal on the cap, the rotor will point to the hill holder spring the firing is 1324, #1 is on the passenger side front cyl. at 20 BTDC, the rotor points right at #1 on the cap and the hill holder spring, at 0 BTDC, it points right at the hole the cap screws into. around 4:30 when my wife gets home, I can try swapping the coil out of her car (91 loyale) and seeing if that's the problem. thanks for the ideas so far -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 with the timing covers off, where is the dot on the passenger side. it should be in line with the top rib of the flat part below the word subaru. if it is anywhere else the alignment would be off. i have seen one particular spfi chunk a gear on the cam causing the disty yo skip a tooth. what caused this was a loose cam retainer because a previous mechanic stripped the bolt holes, allowing the cam to walk if you are getting spark you may want to consider this. also, take the disty bolts out so you can turn the dist beyond its range, and try different positions to see if it starts. have someone crank while you fanagle the disty. of course finding a used coil bracket for cheap is a good place to start a process of elimination. but generally if the ign amplifier goes bad, the car will start, and then die after it runs a while. try pulling engine codes, see if the crank angle sensor code comes up. if so, replace the disty. also, read this and run through the timing belt procedure and double check your alignments. having changed the cap or rotor, check to make sure the little nugget inside the cap hasnt fallen out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 4, 2005 Author Share Posted January 4, 2005 ok, I checked the timing belt alignment, it looks fine. the only error code it gives me is 34, which is the EGR solenoid or circuit. The problem with it is I took it out a while ago :-) Edit: Double checked to make sure I'm getting spark. I only checked the passenger side since my battery is almost dead (again). They both had spark. Edit 2: The little nugget thing in the cap is there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 Just swapped the coil from my wifes car into mine. Same thing. It'll crank but not start. Put my coil in her car, and it starts right up. hmm... thanks for the help so far -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 did you change the bracket and the coil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 yep, changed the whole thing. I also made sure the metal was clean on the car and the bracket. when it warms up a bit this morning I'm going to double check and make sure I have gas to the engine, and spark on the drivers side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hoozie, Is it possible the sparking plugs are gas fouled thus causing the no start when using Mom's coil ect.? Might try a dry set. Did you happen to check and compare spark with her unit in place? You could put your coil/bracket on her car as a test of these components. Just as a wild hair test make sure the positive coil terminal has full battery voltage while cranking (12V - or above) The battery getting a bit weak in the knees from all this cranking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 Ok, put in an old set of plugs I managed to find in my toolkit. It tries to fire now, but only once and occasionally (good sign?) I put my entire coil bracket in my wifes car last night and it started just fine. I checked the voltage at the positive terminal on the coil and it was 12V I disconnected the exhaust after the first (empty) cat, just to make sure that too much back pressure isn't causing it. and I just charged the battery for the third time :-) hmm.... what else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hooz, not to reiterate but " Did you happen to check and compare spark with her unit in place? You could put your coil/bracket on her car as a test of these components. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 YAY, it started :-) Not sure what I did though... Charged the battery back, tried starting with the throttle to the floor, and it finally fired. It doesn't sound that good right now, but I might just not be used to it without the exhaust, Skip, yea, I did check the drivers side with the old plugs on my wifes coil, and it seemed to be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hooz, you are very lucky to have a "test mule" as one might call it I would put your coil set up on her car and see if it runs normal. My bet here is you may have had some corrosion on one of the coil connections. Cranking with low battery and low spark gas fouled the plugs/cylinders. Congrats on the fire in the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 thanks for all the help guys, on me all around :-) Skip, my coil is in her car right now and it runs fine. She took it to work today :-) I think I'll try putting my first set of plugs back in to see if I can reproduce the problem. Thanks again, I learned a lot while troubleshooting this thing. -Dave :banana: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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