TMan Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I am about to change the timing belt (past due @ 120K) on my wife's 99 Outback 2.5 AWD automatic. I understand from reading other posts on the forum that the water pump should also be replaced during this process as well as the cam seals (4 ea.), crank seal (1 ea.) and the oil pump seal. 1. Reading the posts indicate I can make my own cam sprocket holder to prevent the cams from turning when the old T-belt is removed (really only needed on the left side? true or false?) from sockets and flat stock? The endwrench.com information would make you think both sides should be "locked down" and catastrophe results if the cams move? What if a cam does turn, do you turn it "back" or roll it on through to its original position? 2. I am confused about whether the cam sprockets need to be removed in order to replace the seals? It would seem so... and if the sprockets do need to be removed how is that done without the cam shafts turning? 3. About resealing the oil pump...is there a seal (part#10991AA001) that fits between the pump body and the block? Also, is there another point that needs sealing requiring the "ultra gray" RTV? 4. The T-belt tensioner sounds kind of fragile... are they typically reusable? Any and all advice from those experienced will be appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97OBW Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 u went 120k on the original timing belt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMan Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 Yeh, Boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97OBW Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 is yours supposed to be changed at 60k(according to the manual)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinnhedd Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I have 150k, bought my 98 Forester used, and have absolutely no idea if the timing has been done or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 when you go over 100K on a timing belt you are living dangerously (or 80K). The 2.5L engine is an interfernce engine. The belt breaks, many things can bang into each other inside the engine. At the most a timing belt should never go more then a few thousand over the interval, if that much. There is way too much money to loose by letting it go to long., and that damage is 100% avoidable nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Well, Tman, all I can tell you is what worked for me. You can indeed make a cam holding tool out of flat stock and a pair of sockets. Just make sure that you have some way of holding those sockets fast to the bar, or they will tend to spin free. My solution was to use deep sockets, and to use machine bolts passed thru the inside of each socket so the threaded ends stuck out like studs from the back of each socket. I put a lockwasher on the bolt before inserting it into the socket (star type, 'cause the split rings don't have anything to grab on to) and I torqued two nuts down on the outside (the lug end) in order to hold the bolt fast. For good measure, and since these were spare sockets, I poured a good dollop of long cure epoxy into each socket and let the whole thing set up for 24 hrs before I used them. Once the epoxy had set those lugs weren't going to move! I then added a lockwasher in-between the nuts and my bar, which I had drilled so that the sockets would be held at the proper space to grab each of the bolt heads holding the cam pulleys in place. Another lockwasher on the outside, followed by two more nuts (I like that jam nut idea for really locking something down, because you may want to loosen it up a bit to allow some adjustment later and just loosening one of the two nuts usually provides enough slip to allow you to make a minor adjustment.) It really was simple, and much cheaper than spending $130 for a tool that you'll maybe use two or at most three times per engine. The EndWrench article is too paranoid. If a cam slips, all that is going to happen is that the valves that were open are gonna snap shut. In the unlikely event that both cams slip in the "wrong" direction at exactly the same time, you will get valves that bump into each other. Not good, but if you are precise about the alignment when you crank everything around to the recommended belt install position, the cams are slightly biased in the "right" way, so the cams usually don't slip at exactly the same time, and valves don't bang into each other. If a cam slips, don't crank it all the way around, just back it up to the alignment position opposite the way that it slipped and you'll be fine. I know, because in the course of putting the new belt on I knocked my wonder tool off the cam bolt heads and first one, then shortly later the other, cam slipped. OOPS! But, no damage!! You do have to remove the cam sprockets in order to replace the seals, but it is my understanding that "newer" seals (brown, rather than the black colored originals ca. 1996-1998) are much longer life. I had my first timing belt replaced by a Sube dealer because all my seals decided to leak at once -- oil poured out of the engine faster than I could put it in -- and after they were replaced I have had no problems since. That's over 100K miles on the new seals without problems, and I opted to leave 'em alone with the timing belt/water pump job that I just did recently. I can't tell you about the oil pump, as I never touched mine, but I can say from experience that the old style tensioner is sturdy as a rock. Mine is still good at 218K miles. The new style isn't so much fragile as it is in need of a very precise, steady compression to reset the pusher -- or it will bend and never work correctly again. I'm glad that I have the old style in my 2.5. Good luck with the job! And don't forget to reward yourself later for saving hundreds of $$, and for learning a bit more about the finer points of the Sube 2.5L engine! Wayne B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a97obw Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 1. Reading the posts indicate I can make my own cam sprocket holder to prevent the cams from turning when the old T-belt is removed (really only needed on the left side? true or false?) from sockets and flat stock? The endwrench.com information would make you think both sides should be "locked down" and catastrophe results if the cams move? What if a cam does turn, do you turn it "back" or roll it on through to its original position? I'd replace the spark plugs while you are doing the rest of the work, simply because if you remove the spark plugs before you remove the timing belt, you will be able to turn the engine over much easier by hand without compression working against you in order to get the crank and cam marks lined up before removing the belt. Once all the marks are lined up correctly and you remove the belt, watch out for that upper (intake) cam on the left side of the engine (right side as you are looking at the engine from in front of the car)....that's the only one that has the valve springs compressed....and it'll take the hide off your hands if you grab it and it spins! The other 3 cams will be fine. I've never used any kind of special tool to hold the cams in order to put the timing belt on. If you'll start at the crank with the new belt, then under the tensioner pulley, and then to the upper right (as you are looking at it) cam, around to the lower cam etc. it won't spin on you. 2. I am confused about whether the cam sprockets need to be removed in order to replace the seals? It would seem so... and if the sprockets do need to be removed how is that done without the cam shafts turning? Yes, you have to remove the camshaft sprockets to replace the camshaft seals. Easiest way to do this is to break the camshaft sprocket bolts loose before removing the old timing belt by first turning it over to line up all the marks....and then I'd remove the valve covers in order to put a LARGE crescent wrench on the hex shape cast into the cams which is how you are supposed to hold them. Of course at your mileage, you may as well check the valve adjustment and replace the valve cover gaskets and the spark plug gaskets (the 4 gaskets that fit in the valve covers around the spark plug holes). 3. About resealing the oil pump...is there a seal (part#10991AA001) that fits between the pump body and the block? Also, is there another point that needs sealing requiring the "ultra gray" RTV? Not sure about that part number, but it is an O ring that you replace. I'd put a dab of grease on the O ring and fit it to the engine block right before you put the pump housing back on the engine. Prefer a small bead of anaerobic sealent on the pump housing using the illustration of the Haynes manual for where to put the sealant. 4. The T-belt tensioner sounds kind of fragile... are they typically reusable? What, they are about $75 or so....cheap insurance! Good Luck and have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMan Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 is yours supposed to be changed at 60k(according to the manual)? Mine was SUPPOSED to be changed at 105,000 miles. I thought it was done a few years ago (well before 105K) when the dealer had to replace a front crank seal (warranty work). The invoice "read" "replaced all drive belts" and I thought it included the timing belt as well. Recently I checked the part numbers and surprise... it was only the AC and the V belt. Should have done my homework beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMan Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 A97OBW & WAYNE BONCYK Really nice to get some feedback based on previous experience. Greatly Appreciated TMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 You're Welcome! Have fun!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eventoday Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 I just had to replace my cylinder heads because i had a bad t belt pulley. when i had it a part i noticed that at top dead center and 180 off all four pistons were in so as far as i no, if you line it up to top dead center you can turn the cams as much as you want and you don't have to worry about bending valves. i have 97 leg outback with the 2.5 and i would assume it is the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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