subaru360 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 OK here is a strange one. I have never come across this before. This is my bother in law's OBS. It's hard to start after it sits for a while. It cranks slow, then starts up and taps for a bit and then runs fine. He just got this a few weeks ago. I don't know a lot of history on it. It's a 98 or so, I forget, EJ22. It sat around for at least 3 years before he got it. I changed the oil and gave it a tune up when he got it. It does have a brand new battery. It has the stock fuel pump out of my wrx in it, the one it it went bad from sitting. I don't think it is a starter problem. After the initial start it will start up normally until it sits for a while. I think it's doing something wacky with the crank sensor and adding too much timing? It has that sort of over advanced timing sound when it trys to start. Then maybe just some typical subie piston slap? Or maybe the motor is getting ready to let go and spin a bearing or something. I know most of the normal subie problems, I've never quite seen this before. Ideas? I'm going to see if can hook up my laptop to it and see what the timing does cold and maybe look at the coolant temp sensor when it's cold. If I can't figure this out soon, I'm just going to toss one of my spare engines in it, I can swap them out in a few hours now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenleg88 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 OK here is a strange one. I have never come across this before. This is my bother in law's OBS. It's hard to start after it sits for a while. It cranks slow, then starts up and taps for a bit and then runs fine. He just got this a few weeks ago. I don't know a lot of history on it. It's a 98 or so, I forget, EJ22. It sat around for at least 3 years before he got it. I changed the oil and gave it a tune up when he got it. It does have a brand new battery. It has the stock fuel pump out of my wrx in it, the one it it went bad from sitting. I don't think it is a starter problem. After the initial start it will start up normally until it sits for a while. I think it's doing something wacky with the crank sensor and adding too much timing? It has that sort of over advanced timing sound when it trys to start. Then maybe just some typical subie piston slap? Or maybe the motor is getting ready to let go and spin a bearing or something. I know most of the normal subie problems, I've never quite seen this before. Ideas? I'm going to see if can hook up my laptop to it and see what the timing does cold and maybe look at the coolant temp sensor when it's cold. If I can't figure this out soon, I'm just going to toss one of my spare engines in it, I can swap them out in a few hours now. what kinda oil did you put back in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Lifters are bleeding down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 An engine that "sat around" for three years could have some internal corrosion, especially if the oil hadn't been changed before it was left "sitting". Even if the oil and filter were changed when the car was put back in usage, it can quickly become contaminated if there was corrosion. As McDave said, HLAs could be bleeding down, assuming the engine is not a '98, but actually a '96 or earlier (solids were used '97 and later). Looking at real-time OBD data isn't a bad idea, and might reveal something. If it doesn't (especially if the engine has HLAs), I'd try changing the oil and filter again. If that doesn't make a difference, consider the possibility that one or more fuel injectors are somewhat leaking. Excess gas in a cylinder can make cranking harder, wet out the plug, wash oil from the cylinder wall, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted August 19, 2008 Author Share Posted August 19, 2008 It has walmart brand oil. I use it in everything, never had an issue. I checked and it is a 98 for sure. It doesn't look like the engine has ever been out. So it has solid lifters. We did add some oil treatment stuff last week, no improvement. It could have a leaky injector and that though occured, but I never see any smoke out the tailpipe after it starts. I would think if an injector leaked, it would have some smoke. But I can test the injectors for leaks, pressurize the fuel system, clamp off the return and see if it holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 It has walmart brand oil. I use it in everything, never had an issue. I checked and it is a 98 for sure. It doesn't look like the engine has ever been out. So it has solid lifters. We did add some oil treatment stuff last week, no improvement. It could have a leaky injector and that though occured, but I never see any smoke out the tailpipe after it starts. I would think if an injector leaked, it would have some smoke. But I can test the injectors for leaks, pressurize the fuel system, clamp off the return and see if it holds. I like your thought about the leaky injector, but agree that you should see some smoke if that were the case. It could also be the fuel filter. If it sat that long it may have gunked up the fuel filter and it's taking time to build pressure through the filter. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted August 19, 2008 Author Share Posted August 19, 2008 I like your thought about the leaky injector, but agree that you should see some smoke if that were the case. It could also be the fuel filter. If it sat that long it may have gunked up the fuel filter and it's taking time to build pressure through the filter. Keith I put a new fuel filter in it when he got the car. I put the original fuel pump from my wrx (I put a walbro in the wrx) in the OBS because the fuel pump had frozen from sitting. It did have some gunk on the sending unit, but I cleaned it off. The tank was clean inside. It had about a gallon of old gas in it, but has run through a fresh tank since then. This isn't like it's not getting fuel. It cranks slowly then fires up and taps for a bit. After that you can run it all day normally. It started up this morning, I guess. My brother in law took off with it before I got a chance to hook my laptop and look at the obd2 data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 SLow crank- meaning it takes longer to start, or the starter is turning slower then normal? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted August 19, 2008 Author Share Posted August 19, 2008 SLow crank- meaning it takes longer to start, or the starter is turning slower then normal? nipper The starter turns slower than normal. It sounds like an older car with over advanced timing. Other than the first start of the day it cranks normally. I have another starter to try, but doubt that is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 The starter turns slower than normal. It sounds like an older car with over advanced timing. Other than the first start of the day it cranks normally. I have another starter to try, but doubt that is the problem. This is the first i've heard of a slow crank. Usually cold start issues are the coolant temp sensor. The crank position sensor tells the ecu the piston position, but the cam position sensor has more to do with timing. I would check that one too. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted August 19, 2008 Author Share Posted August 19, 2008 This is the first i've heard of a slow crank. Usually cold start issues are the coolant temp sensor. The crank position sensor tells the ecu the piston position, but the cam position sensor has more to do with timing. I would check that one too. nipper I have never seen a subie do what this one does either. I am thinking of putting in cam and crank sensors, a coolant sensor and a starter tonight. I have spares of all of them to try. If that fails, I think I am just going to put in one of my spare engines. I think this car is cursed or something. He called me and today on the way to work a rock hit the winshield and broke it, the windshield was 2 weeks old. Then the ABS light came one. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Here is a real long shot. How old is the timing belt? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 Here is a real long shot. How old is the timing belt? nipper Unknown, assumed to be original with 110,000 miles. I have a new one here ready to go on. I was holding off on putting it on until I was sure the engine was going to be ok. Tonight it sat for about 4-5 hours. Same deal, very slow crank took about 10 tries to start. When it did start, tapped for about 30 seconds and then ran fine. It really sounds like the timing is off or something in the engine is seizing up. Just to try it, I put known good cam, crank and coolant sensors in it to try. I didn't have a starter to match the one in it. I'll see what it does in the morning. If it doesn't start up, I'm just yanking it and putting a known good 2.2 in it. Seems kinda drastic to you guys, I know, but he needs a reliable car and I can swap engines in a few hours. I'll just swap the tune up stuff over and put the timing belt on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 GIven the cars history, and you have a replacement engine handy, doesnt seem drastic to me. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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