wildhair Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Weird, but I can't get my subie started. First it died, I immediately thought timing belt. But no, both are good. I had no spark, so replaced coil with a used one. Started right up! Until it died the next day. I had just bought a spare coil earlier that day (for my boat) so I threw that in there expecting a fix. Nope. Still no spark. Since then I've fussed around and replaced the distributor and coil with a 'working one' from a wrecking yard. No go. Seems everytime I fiddle with something I get a bit of spark (tries to fire once) but then nothing. It is not giving me any codes. WTH? Someplace else to look? Computer? Oh, 1989 Subaru DL 2x4 wagon w/automatic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The most likely cause of the trouble is a bad CAS in the disty. Make sure there is voltage on the minus side of the coil while the ignition is on. Make sure fuse #5 is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildhair Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 That is what I thought, and the reason I replaced the distributor. I have voltage to the - side of the coil when the key is on, and the + side for that matter. Nothing out the primary when cranking. I'm not sure how to identify fuse #5, but I checked the one for "IG / Coil / ECC" and it is fine... Any other tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 Looking at the fuse box in the dash you should have three rows with 8 fuse positions. Fuse #5 is on the top row, five fuses from the left side of the panel.The ignition relay may be faulty so check for power on pins 29,41 (white) and 49 (red/blue) of the ECU. Also, does the CEL light work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildhair Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 Hey, we're back! The 5th fuse on my panel is clock/horn. Yes, my check engine light does work. I was wrong, I AM getting an ECU code - 12 - ignition circuit. I didn't drop the ECU yet, how do I identify pin number locations. (if they are numbered I'll look dumb) Thanks for reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 just a thought, but I am going to throw it out there anyway - had a similar issue with my old 89 GL wagon several years ago.... Check that the coil bracket is grounded good (ie: bracket bolts are tight) if that checks out ok, try a different bracket - it is possible that the ignition amplifier has gone south (the little thing built in to the bracket) - doesnt happen often, but it does happen. (also possible a broken wire there...) On mine I had spark, but rather weak - took several days of emailing with another member to diagnose/find the problem, but once i replaced the coil bracket all was fine. wouldnt hurt to check/clean all other ground wires as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Hey, we're back! The 5th fuse on my panel is clock/horn. Yes, my check engine light does work. Yes it is. Or that is what it's labeled, it also is the main power feed for the ECU memory. Did you check it? Do you're clock and horn work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildhair Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 Oh, sorry! Yes, the fuse is good and the horn blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 At that point then I being to suspect the bracket with heartless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 It may be the ignitor also. Pretty unlikely it is the ECU. They usually have a different problem if there is something wrong with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildhair Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 OK, I'll give that a try, but it will be the weekend before I can do it in the daylight... Can you help me understand, please? What is the CAS in the distributor, and what does that do? I thought that thingy was the ignitor... Does voltage at - coil mean this is working? If no, how can the CAS be tested? So where is the ignitor? Can it be tested? What is the gizmo (technical term) under the coil that is hard wired into the harness? And what does it do? Sorry to be so ignorant. Please enlighten me! None of this is in my '85 factory manual, nor the chitlens manual. And thanks for the tips! Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 The crank angle sensor tells the ECU where the position of the crank is via a photo sensor. There should be voltage on the minus side of the coil but to fire the plugs that voltage needs to be tied to ground briefly. The ignitor provides the ground switching to the coil. The ignitor is what you are seeing under the coil I think. Testing it is a little tricky. You could try checking the voltage on the leads but since it switches quickly it isn't real easy to pick up on the meter. Try replacing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 As Heartless correctly called it the unit under the coil on the bracket is the ignition amplifier Some people incorrectly refer to this as an ignitor (I have even seen this in print) but in reality an ignitor is found inside some (not this model) distributors. It sends a pulse to ignition related components. On the other hand, the ignition amplifier receives a signal from the ECU - amplifies it and sends it to the coil. It is nothing more than a power transistor. Thus Hearthless's warning about the bracket grounding, as the ground is one of the "legs" of the transistor. They do go bad and or have wiring issues on rare occasions. As Cougar says the best test is a replacement. The distributor in this model is called a Crank Angle Sensor (CAS). The "guts" are pictured below. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 yup, easiest to just swap out the coil bracket with a known good one - make sure the area & bolts are clean and tight as that is where the bracket grounds. no good ground, no start. another way to "test" is pull a plug wire, stick a spare plug in it, and hold it close to a grounding source - i used one of the strut bolts - and crank the engine over - you shoud be able to see the spark (best done in semi darkness) if the ignition amplifier is good you can 'stretch' the spark out a good half inch or more and it should be bright white/yellow white in color - on mine the spark was very weak and bluish in color and i had to hold the plug very close to the bolt to get it to jump (less than 1/4 inch... if you do try this method, i would highly recommend using a pair of plastic tongs to hold the wire!!! (go ahead, ask me why... ) to Skip - thank you again for all the help you provided back then...the ol girl is still going!! my daughter drives her now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Skip, Thanks for the good info on the ignition amplifier and the picture of the CAS. Glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 my pleasure folks (glad to read that JoAnne, my Willy kinda went into retirement) hope it helps Wildhair and he gets back to us no matter what the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildhair Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 More good stuff guys, thanks a lot. I saw the CPS in the dist, just thought that was the ignitor from past experiences. Didn't know about the ignition amplifier. Seems to me it is hard wired in to the main harness, but I'll look again. Do I need to strip the wires back to find a connector? Cut and splice? I think I didn't swap the amplifier out because it looked hard-wired, so I don't think I swapped the bracket either. So the ground or amplifier seem likely suspects... I'll definately get back in a couple days, either way. Thanks again. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I don't think you have to cut any wires to replace the amplifier. I think it is in a socket. Check for some screws that hold it in on each side. Skip, Isn't the amp basically like a TO-3 transistor package, with a screw on each side to hold it in the socket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Glen, the ig amp case is rivoted to the bracket, not held there by screws. The wiring comes from the car to the ig amp from the amp to the coil. as seen here I'll dig one out and get a better shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Thanks for the info there Skip. Since I haven't had to replace one of these in the past I wasn't real sure how it was designed. After seeing your picture I assume that you have to replace the whole bracket and there is a connector included also that allows connection up to the wire hareness in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Glen my sincere apologies my friend. I dug out another coil bracket and this one HAS screws holding the power transistor on just like you said it would. Once removed (see picture below) it is a conventional power transistor case, just as you said. Sorry, I thought I had seen some rivoted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildhair Posted December 5, 2008 Author Share Posted December 5, 2008 I replaced the ignition amplifier and the coil bracket itself. No Start. It did stumble, but won't start. Spark is weak and orange when I hold a plug close to ground. By the way, the amplifier was held on with two screws and the wires from it, although they appear to go into the wiring harness at first glance, just loop back to the coil. So, still no go. This car is getting close to scrapped... Thanks for your help though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 your plugs may be gas fouled try some other plugs and charge the battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 dont give up on her yet!! "We have the technology, we can rebuild her!" as suggested by Skip - make sure the battery has a full charge and check/clean/replace the plugs if needed - give her optimum conditions. also, just for grins, check the fuseable links in the box under the hood, make sure all are in good condition and fitting tight. might also check the disty cap & rotor - if very worn, i would replace them - again, giving the car optimum start conditions. make sure all plug wires are firmly seated at both ends. try again... Keep us posted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Have you checked that it is sparking in proper time? Is this the type that has the screw that holds the rotor in place? If so is the screw there? Have you tried a different caqp and rotor? I know you tried multiole distys, but did you try different caps and rotors? I worked on a plymouth voyavger the other day that WOULD NOT start, until I replaced the Cap and Rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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