DupermanDave Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Hey guys! First post and new subaru owner. We (fiance and I) just bought a 1996 subaru outback legacy with the 2.2 L motor (whats the official name of this engine?) Very nice car! Only thing wrong with it is it has a leaky oil pan gasket. So I'm looking to replace that by lifting out the engine. I have a few questions: First off, I won't have any help unless I wait a month or two. Can this be tackled in a weekend (3 day weekend?) by one person? Second, I'll have access to an engine crane, so I'll be unmounting the engine. Other than the engine mounts, what else has to be unbolted/removed before I can lift the engine enough to remove the oil pan? Do I have to separate the transmission? If so, how do I do this? I did a search here (and on google) looking for some guide and tips. Couldn't find much. I'm mostly a Toyota guy (1989 pickup with the 22re,) but I'm really anxious to dive in and learn more about this new subaru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Welcome. Thats an EJ22. Be aware it's very likely that it's not the oil pan - it just looks that way. The "baffle plate" or "oil seperator plate" leaks on the back of these engines (it's rarely the main sela that most folks suggest NOT to touch - even if the engine is out). There is no oil pan gasket. It's RTV - most use Ultra Grey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DupermanDave Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Welcome. Thats an EJ22. Be aware it's very likely that it's not the oil pan - it just looks that way. The "baffle plate" or "oil seperator plate" leaks on the back of these engines (it's rarely the main sela that most folks suggest NOT to touch - even if the engine is out). There is no oil pan gasket. It's RTV - most use Ultra Grey. The mechanic we bought it from said it was the oil pan, so I was just going to take his word for it. I also know you cant find a gasket for this and need to use RTV, which is what the mechanic did and it's what I was going to use. ANy brands you guys recommend? I saw some stuff meant for oil and high temperature uses at carquest. If it's the baffle plate, how hard is that gasket to replace? This leak is a pretty fast one. Small puddles form in minutes. It's barely driveable. So you guys dont suspect oil pan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortskoolbus Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (it's rarely the main sela that most folks suggest NOT to touch - even if the engine is out). Yes i learned the hard way. If it's not leaking dont touch that thing. But your oil separator plate is definitely leaking if it hasn't been changed. I like to use Hondabond HT, but probably pretty similar to permatex. You can get a tube of it on Ebay for 10 bucks shipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortskoolbus Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 The mechanic we bought it from said it was the oil pan, so I was just going to take his word for it. I also know you cant find a gasket for this and need to use RTV, which is what the mechanic did and it's what I was going to use. ANy brands you guys recommend? I saw some stuff meant for oil and high temperature uses at carquest. If it's the baffle plate, how hard is that gasket to replace? This leak is a pretty fast one. Small puddles form in minutes. It's barely driveable. So you guys dont suspect oil pan? It's a PITA to replace, it's right next to the rear main. So your tranny or engine has to come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 I use Permatex(I believe) Ultra Grey for everything on Suby engines. It sets up a bit firmer than some RTV's. I use it for oil pans, baffle plates, by the cam corners on DOHC's when doing HG jobs, to reseal the oil pump (along with a new Oring). Everything that needs sealed on a Suby. Easy to find, reasonably priced. Not to say there may be better or more pricey stuff. But it seems to work well for me and I'm not a shortcut kinda guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 i didn't know the seperater plate would leak that much, a pupple under the car sound like oil pump to me. if you let the engine idle in the drive way, where's the puddle, front or rear of the engine? is the trans oily or engine and trans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 You need to steam clean and test run the thing to be sure you aren't wasting your time fixing things that aren't broken. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg donovan Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 You need to steam clean and test run the thing to be sure you aren't wasting your time fixing things that aren't broken. GD yep. we need more info. is the mechanic that the car was purchased from a subaru mechanic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Be aware it's very likely that it's not the oil pan - it just looks that way. +1 All the leaks in the front of the motor drip down and blow back, so they all can *look* like a leaking oil pan, however, that is the very last thing I ussually ever have to reseal. The oil is almost always fromt eh front main, the Cams, or the rear seporator plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DupermanDave Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) Eeek. Sounds worse than i thought. The mechanic wasnt a subaru mechanic, but he was a japanese auto specialist. Whats required to replace that gasket on the oil separator? Just separate the engine from the transmission and lift the engine out? -edit- http://beergarage.com/SubyClutch.aspx found that. It's for a manual though and we have an automatic. So the engine has to be completely removed and separated from the tranny? Edited May 17, 2009 by DupermanDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Whats required to replace that gasket on the oil separator? Just separate the engine from the transmission and lift the engine out? I would not assume that that is the problem either. First thing, wash and wipe off the underside of the motor. Second, if you don't know when the timing belt was changed, might as well change it, and while you are in there, install new Crank and Cam seals. Put a new O-ring behind the oil pump if it is leaky from behind. At that point, I bet 90% of your leaks will be gone. And then you can decide if pulling the motor is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortskoolbus Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 but that baffle plate always leaks... i think at this point its safe to assume any car that hasn't had that done is gonna be leaking from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DupermanDave Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Timing belt looks brand new. Actually, all the belts and hoses look brand new (barcode tag isnt even faded on any of them) This engine only has 90k miles on it. But while the engine is pulled, I'm definitely going to take a look at everything that I can replace and replace it. But for starters, I want to take care of the leak. Im going to take it to the pressure wash and steam blast the underside to narrow down where the leak is coming from. Can you see the oil separator plate from underneath the car? After I wash it, i need to know where to start looking for the drips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortskoolbus Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 no you can't look down on the RH side of the engine where the engine meets the tranny bellhousing right above the crossmember. You should see some oil seeping through right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) the seperator plate is behind the flywheel / flexplate on the back side of the engine. a leak there will put very little oil on any part of the engine except the rear bottom where it meets the trans. it will, however, oil up everything from there back. if you have oil on the middle or front part of the engine bottom, it's probably not the seperator plate. for most owners, pulling the engine to replace the seperator plate is a lot of work which they are reluctant to do unless they are pulling the engine for some other reason. there are lots of places that can leak on the front of the engine which can be repaired with out pulling the engine. (and will also oil up the entire under side of it.) i would address the leaks on the front of the engine first, before pulling the engine, assuming there are some, unless you just want to get close to your car. then determine if the seperator plate needs to be addressed. leaks to look for on the front of the engine: crank shaft seal behind crank pulley. cam shaft seals behind the cam sprockets. oil pump o-ring and pump impeller screwes, behind the oil pump which is behind the crank pulley. all of these require removing crank pulley/harmonic balancer, timing belt covers and timing belt. just removing the cam sprocket covers may show you if it's leaking there. for a leak as bad as you have described, my bet is the oil pump oring or the pump backing plate screws. i think the sep plate would have to be cracked or broken to leak that much, but i'm sure stranger things have happened. let us know what you learn after you have the bottm side cleaned. EDIT: it is very possible that the selling mechanic replaced the easy stuff not realizing that the with just a little more work he could have resolved all the leaks. it is also possible that he did all the front leaks and sold you the car suggesting the oil pan gasket knowing it was really the sep plate and knowing the engine had to come out to fix it which was more work than he wanted to put in to it. Edited May 18, 2009 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 EDIT: it is very possible that the selling mechanic replaced the easy stuff not realizing that the with just a little more work he could have resolved all the leaks. it is also possible that he did all the front leaks and sold you the car suggesting the oil pan gasket knowing it was really the sep plate and knowing the engine had to come out to fix it which was more work than he wanted to put in to it. Yep. Infact I'm doing my first Suby ever that I just didn't pull and seal the entire engine. The ENTIRE underneath is covered in oil. 99 Impreza 2.2. The whole way back to the muffler. It was a real smoker. The back of the car looks like a diesel. The entire engine was covered in oil on the bottom. I couldn't find a likely source on the front of the engine which was covered with oil. I did oil pump Oring, resealed it (all phillips were tight), Suby crank and cam seals. There is so much oil to burn off! I put 200 miles on it yesterday. I figured with 67k and probably a metal baffle plate that I'd risk it. Now I gotta try and clean it up and see if the baffle is leaking and I gotta yank it anyways. I should know today. But I'm also guessing the seller thought it was the rear main seal (which is probably isn't) but the labor to fix the baffle plate is the same so they just sold it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Timing belt looks brand new. Actually, all the belts and hoses look brand new (barcode tag isnt even faded on any of them) This engine only has 90k miles on it. But while the engine is pulled, I'm definitely going to take a look at everything that I can replace and replace it. Did you pull the timing belt covers to look at the belt? If you didn't pull the covers, you can't inspect the belt. At 90k miles, it's likely the timing belt HASN'T been changed yet, as it is not due for another 10k miles. I find 90% of the oil leaks on these engines are from the front seals (Crank, Cams, Oil Pump O-ring) Don't worry about the rear separator or the oil pan until you have taken care of the leaks up front. Or pull the motor now, and replace all the seals, including valve covers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DupermanDave Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 I sprayed the engine down and found the leak. Looking like it is the oil separator. Does anyone know what the dealer charges for this fix? I've never been to a dealer to have anything fixed. I'm mostly DIY, but this might take a while to fix and I don't have the spare time. Plus, we can pay for the fix after we sell the other car. So any ideas on dealer charges? What else can I do to slow the leak, other than adding thicker oil? (the leak has gotten worse since the first post.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 i think you are looking at about 8 hours of labor. it can be done in less, but i think that's the going rate. the part isn't too bad, 25 - 35$. othere things you can do with the engine out: clutch timing belt - if needed, 96 ej22 due at 105k or 60k intervals reseal front, cam seals, crank seals & orings, valve covers, etc. of course, all of this adds up. and only the seperator and clutch require removing the engine or trans. trans may be cheaper to remove. do you have an independent shop that can do the work instead of the dealer ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DupermanDave Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) do you have an independent shop that can do the work instead of the dealer ? I think so. There's a japanese specialist a few blocks down (can push the car if needed, lol) I'll see how much he will charge. I'm doing a facepalm right now because I didn't even consider an independent shop at all. I'd really like to do it myself, but I can't take too much time off work and I don't know how long it will take. I'll also have to do it at my parent's house, as I don't have a garage (live in an apartment building with parking garage) Is it easier to do it by lifting the engine out, or would it be easier to jack up the car and lower the transmission? I have access to an engine hoist, as well as transmission jacks. Which one would be quicker? Edited June 2, 2009 by DupermanDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 there is nothing hard about r&r of the engine, with one exception, and that's only a problem if you do not know about it. re-seating the torque converter is a little tricky, read this: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81925&highlight=torque+converter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Invest in a 14mm swivel socket for the lower drivers side nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DupermanDave Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Aside from a swivel socket, what other tools will I need? I'm planning on going in from the bottom by dropping the transmission. Aside from a transmission jack, what else will be handy? I'm going to tackle this myself very soon. It's leaking way too much oil too quickly. Our parking space looks like we just dumped 2 quarts of oil on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I've never done it that way. But the correct size punch for the pins on the axles would be nice. Odds are you're gonna screw up the exhaust behind the second cat where the donut goes. Then you'll have to decide whether a new donut is enough, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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