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ej205 pistons into ea82t?


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139 replies to this topic

#76 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:00 AM

Still deciding what to do with the rods, feeling less and less comfortable with opening up the small end on the stock rod.
 
Running bushless without DLC (or similar) coated pins and the correct RA on the rods sounds pretty risky imho. DLC coating my current pins (came with the forged pistons) isn't an option because they have to "remove .0003" a .001" to get the Ra surface finish acceptable for DLC". You lose some OD, that you can't get back. Custom sized DLC coated pins are ~ $50 each and would likely require both the rod and piston pin bore to be honed to the correct RA and clearance.
 
Seriously considering buying some cxracing h-beam from ebay, for an Abarth 850. They have the right C to C length and I *might* be able resize both ends (bore and thickness). They are on sale for $260 a set right now, might just buy a set to see if its even feasible.
 
 
On order:
12 custom sized ampco 45 bronze bushings from pppcenter, can use them with whatever rods are chosen. $18 per bushing.


#77 nncoolg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:08 AM

Just wondering why you didn't just get custom forged EA82t pistons from wiseco?

#78 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:41 AM

Just wondering why you didn't just get custom forged EA82t pistons from wiseco?

 

Price for custom was prohibitive, I looked into it. RAM had some for sale too but the compression was too high for what I am doing. They were flat tops with valve reliefs, would be great for NA or race fuel. I ended up getting my 3 sets for 70$ a piston.

You could argue that working around ej205 pistons is costing more, it might in the long run lol. I'm just going to have fun with these motors. If I have to eat a few less cheeseburgers to pay for parts, my heart will approve.

 

 

 

 

Next on the list of things to figure out.. shimless solid lash adjusters. They make them for the sr20det and mopar 4.7L, why can't I have them on my ea82t? Subaru did shimmed solid conversions on their ea82t rally cars circa 85-89', it was part of their formula to 180hp (probably reliability too).

 

47L00116%20Lash%20Adjusters.jpg


Edited by Ibreakstuff, 03 April 2014 - 09:28 AM.


#79 nncoolg

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:55 AM

A lot of work adjusting those and test fitting the cam box on and off to get them right, but the results would be interesting!
I wonder how similar in size those are - perhaps they could be turned down or presses in a sleeve to suit of EA's...

#80 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:36 AM

A lot of work adjusting those and test fitting the cam box on and off to get them right, but the results would be interesting!
I wonder how similar in size those are - perhaps they could be turned down or presses in a sleeve to suit of EA's...

 

Yep, definitely a pain to adjust them with the cam case but worth it imho. We had the same idea, if they can be turned down or modified to fit.. And they are not too expensive to try.

 

It may come down to me just ordering a few sets and returning the ones that won't work. I sent a few emails out for basic dimensions for each make.


Edited by Ibreakstuff, 03 April 2014 - 08:37 AM.


#81 nncoolg

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:28 AM

I don't expect they make them in solid form, but the HLA's in GM SOHC c14NZ or C12NZ 4 cyl enignes out of Opel Corsa's, Holden Barina's, Daewoo 'whatevers' are very similar to our EA / ER ones...

I heard someone used Datsun adjustable ones in an EA82 once, but I couldn't find many details, allegedly they were OE in one of the old Datsun engine, like the L20 or something...

 

I have often wanted to get some custom pistons made up with the gudgeon pin .040" higher and get the bigend journals .040" offset ground undersize (more if smaller bearings than .040" were available) to increase the stroke a little...

Bore it out a little too and get the old gal close to a 1.9 :)


Edited by nncoolg, 04 April 2014 - 03:28 AM.


#82 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:07 PM

Hrmm, I'll look into that. If I can just get the upper locking part of the solid lash adjuster that fits our rocker arms.. I can figure out machining a body to fit our oem sleeves.

 

Paeco offers crank stroke changes or even custom crank,  I think ~71-72mm stroke and 114-115mm rods would be about the limit the block could hold physically. That could be a cool project.



#83 rpholz

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:58 PM

As for solid lifters, I just picked up a mazda b2300 and in my searching I found solid lifter conversions for the ford 2.3l. It looks very close to our ea stuff. I have a set of heads laying around and plan on ordering a set it at the very least welding a stock lifter for mock up.

#84 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:36 PM

As for solid lifters, I just picked up a mazda b2300 and in my searching I found solid lifter conversions for the ford 2.3l. It looks very close to our ea stuff. I have a set of heads laying around and plan on ordering a set it at the very least welding a stock lifter for mock up.

 

The ford 2.3/2.5 (lima) HLA's are the correct diameter, just taller. I have a set of the ford 2.3 solid lifters on order (esslinger not ble) for confirmation. 

 

Another idea that could be done, if you disassemble the HLA. You could flip the body and drill/tap it for a rocker pivot. I would recommend machining a clip groove and blocking the oil hole. This would be the redneck way to do it.

 

It looks like a few mitsubishi (3g63 and v6's) and GM (ecotec) motors have roller rockers (aka cam followers) that *MIGHT* fit also. If the length and roller placement is correct, it still may require conical springs or valve tips to clear. Might just give up on this idea and just use SLA's and the stock rocker arms, unless I can confirm at pick n pull on the cheap.

 

 

 

 

MLS head gaskets shipped from gaskets to go today, should be in my hands next week. I also had John make some 4 bolt exhaust gaskets in ss mica w/2" flame rings. I'll get pictures up as soon as they arrive.

 

Rod pin bushings (940" OD/ 904" ID) from PPPC arrived a couple days ago also, so I really have to decide if I want to try to modify some abarth 850 h beam rods or just go with the stock rods.

 

 

My better half has been spending this months car budget on our vacation, so I am still at least a month or 2 out from ordering the rest of the parts to build the long blocks.



#85 nncoolg

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 05:57 AM

You get the gaskets yet?

#86 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 05:32 PM

You get the gaskets yet?

 

Yep, I'll try to get pictures up after work tonight. I forgot to post pics before I left for vacation.

 

Also received the solid lash adjusters (originally made for a 2.3 ford lima engine). The diameter fits perfectly but I need to cut them for the correct height and press them into the HLA sleeves. I have some roller rockers that may fit also, but I need to confirm if they will require machining or not.

 

I have not made much progress with connection rods or head studs yet, due to being broke lol. I'm saving up to order more parts tho.



#87 nncoolg

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 02:47 PM

Roller rockers sound interesting!
Can't wait to see the lash adjusters and gaskets...

#88 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:51 AM

I'm slow... work/life/cars has kept me away from the computer at home.

 

MLS HG, with my mods to layout.

 

IMG_1340.jpg
 
IMG_1341.jpg
 
IMG_1342.jpg
 
 
IMG_1347.jpg
 
IMG_1349.jpg
 
Here are the SLA's, at the bottom is what a mitsubishi roller rocker arm (cam follower) looks like. Its just a bit too small, still looking for something that will fit. 1.6L EDM VW's might have something closer. Or I could man up and have some made from 4140 1.5" bar stock. Sorry for the dirty pics, everything is coated with oil.
 
IMG_1352.jpg
 
IMG_1353.jpg
 
IMG_1354.jpg
 
IMG_1355.jpg
 
IMG_1356.jpg

Edited by Ibreakstuff, 31 May 2014 - 12:54 AM.


#89 apintonut

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:48 AM

Look Toyota rockers also let me get a measure ment from center of ball to center of taper and I'll make a phone call

what I would do is take my 18v impact down to the wrecking yard and buzz a few valve covers off
thinking
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Mazda b engine
nissan/datsun pu 1.8 2.0

hold your stock one up to thems

Edited by apintonut, 31 May 2014 - 01:49 AM.


#90 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:20 AM

This is what I have been doing, every time I am at pick n pull I yank a few valve covers. Ford 2.3/2.5 rockers are too long, mitsu DSM/4g and ecotec motors look too small.

 

From center of the ball to center of where the valve stem contacts is ~42mm

 

Also, the location of the roller and the shape/width of the valve contact has to work too. If I was rich, I would have Jesel whip up a few sets on their CNC lathe. I was joking about milling some 4140 round bar.. but it would probably work.

 

Cool read:

http://www.mmsonline...ing-is-optional

 

Look Toyota rockers also let me get a measure ment from center of ball to center of taper and I'll make a phone call

what I would do is take my 18v impact down to the wrecking yard and buzz a few valve covers off
thinking
Toyota 22r
Mazda b engine
nissan/datsun pu 1.8 2.0

hold your stock one up to thems



#91 nncoolg

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:40 AM

I like that retainer! Will that fit in the cam box? What engine are they and the lifters from?

#92 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:28 AM

Just from eyeballing it, they should fit.

 

The SLA's and the"mouse trap" clips are for the 2.3 Ford lima/pinto motor (aka metric/ministock motor). The set I bought came from a company named A.C.E., but esslinger and others do make sets for that motor. The body of the SLA has to be cut down, I'm not sure how much I will cut the first set yet.. Probably flush with the HLA sleeve.

 

I am going on a junkyard run on sunday, I'll try to find a few other OHC motors to check for rockers/followers.


Edited by Ibreakstuff, 31 May 2014 - 03:31 AM.


#93 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 03:38 AM

Oh and I have all but decided on 1/2" head studs, they should be pretty tight in the holes of the heads. But I'm thinking this is a good thing for keeping everything snug.

 

And even with studs, I should still be able to pull the cam case to adjust the lash (still in the car). If the SLA's didn't have to be set to 65ft/lbs, I would consider some crows foot wrenches to reach in with the cam case still on.


Edited by Ibreakstuff, 31 May 2014 - 03:40 AM.


#94 nncoolg

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:57 AM

Found this for Chrysler motors : http://www.allpar.co...chronology.html
This for vauxhalls : http://workshop-manu...c_valve_lifter/

Edited by nncoolg, 31 May 2014 - 05:00 AM.


#95 el_freddo

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 04:58 AM

I heard someone used Datsun adjustable ones in an EA82 once, but I couldn't find many details, allegedly they were OE in one of the old Datsun engine, like the L20 or something...

 

Datsun L series engine :D  The way I did it wasn't fantastic as I used two bolts per solid lifter and the measurement I gave the machinist was nice and tight yet I found that each HVLA were slightly different.  I used two bolts fitted inside a gutted lifter, hence why they were all slightly different.

What I'd do a second time around would be use a threaded sleeve that I'd lock into the gutted lifter with a grub screw drilled in at an angle to put pressure on the wall of the lifter slot/hole.  This would also sort out the adjustment locking nut to lock properly without having to stop the whole assembly from spinning.

 

Solid lifters were a PITA to adjust - engine out is the only way, removing the cambox and replacing it to check the change in the tolerance was a crap job to say the least!  Get one wrong and it either taps away or the valve doesn't seal.

 

Once they were in the stock MPFI seemed sluggish - until you hit 4000rpm, then it screamed from there upwards!  I was running the same cam profile of the HVLAs, which was probably part of the issue.

 

What ruined these for me was that I sent in 16 bolts to be shaved down and only got 15 back.  I was on a deadline so ran one lifter without a second bolt - this ended up letting go and it almost sent a valve into the cylinder, one of the half moon clips on the top of the valve dropped out and the other wouldn't have been far away - we had to limp 1km to pull over.  And we were on a trip across Australia, 2 hours east of Ceduna with the engine in bits to replace the modified units.

Here's the result of the busted one:

 

 

 

I got the idea from a mate in QLD that's running the same setup in his bug with a carb EA82 - that thing screamed right through the rev range!

Cheers

Bennie



#96 nncoolg

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 05:23 AM

I'm guessing you meant 'two nuts' in the HLA body which the adjusters screwed into?

#97 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 03:21 PM

Datsun L series engine :D  The way I did it wasn't fantastic as I used two bolts per solid lifter and the measurement I gave the machinist was nice and tight yet I found that each HVLA were slightly different.  I used two bolts fitted inside a gutted lifter, hence why they were all slightly different.

What I'd do a second time around would be use a threaded sleeve that I'd lock into the gutted lifter with a grub screw drilled in at an angle to put pressure on the wall of the lifter slot/hole.  This would also sort out the adjustment locking nut to lock properly without having to stop the whole assembly from spinning.

 

Solid lifters were a PITA to adjust - engine out is the only way, removing the cambox and replacing it to check the change in the tolerance was a crap job to say the least!  Get one wrong and it either taps away or the valve doesn't seal.

 

Once they were in the stock MPFI seemed sluggish - until you hit 4000rpm, then it screamed from there upwards!  I was running the same cam profile of the HVLAs, which was probably part of the issue.

 

What ruined these for me was that I sent in 16 bolts to be shaved down and only got 15 back.  I was on a deadline so ran one lifter without a second bolt - this ended up letting go and it almost sent a valve into the cylinder, one of the half moon clips on the top of the valve dropped out and the other wouldn't have been far away - we had to limp 1km to pull over.  And we were on a trip across Australia, 2 hours east of Ceduna with the engine in bits to replace the modified units.

Here's the result of the busted one:

 

cimg0990xn1.jpg

 

cimg0994if6.jpg

 

I got the idea from a mate in QLD that's running the same setup in his bug with a carb EA82 - that thing screamed right through the rev range!

Cheers

Bennie

 

Wow, it beat the spoob out of that retainer! I'm surprised it didn't just throw the rocker arm!

 

 

I played with a gutted HLA too but like you found, I was less than impressed by the accuracy when locking it via a hex bolt from the bottom. It was a huge pita to dial in. Subaru used to sell shims for adjust solid lash, that could just be fit inside the gutted HLA body.. but they have long been discontinued.

 

The method that the Subaru rally teams used in the late 80's for setting lash on solid lifter was to: Remove the cam cases and the sealant. Reattach w/couple bolts hand tight, flush to the head, then measure the lash with feeler gauges. You want to gauge with lobe @ 12 o'clock (away from the head, rotate motor by hand). Then mic the lifters out of the head and +/- from the measurements from before. Double check, then seal/torque it. Cold lash of 0.20-0.24mm is listed using this method, but that seems pretty loose imho. I'm personally going to shoot for around 0.17mm cold.

 

And you are correct about the cam's, I believe solid lifter cams profiles generally have ramps. I will be sending mine off to delta eventually anyways.

 

Bennie, were you the guy that had one of those prototype ea72 motors in a barn? I seem to recall this from another forum or searching google.



#98 el_freddo

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 07:00 AM

I'm guessing you meant 'two nuts' in the HLA body which the adjusters screwed into?

 

Yeah, sorry, pretty tired when I wrote that...

 

Wow, it beat the spoob out of that retainer! I'm surprised it didn't just throw the rocker arm!

 

Bennie, were you the guy that had one of those prototype ea72 motors in a barn? I seem to recall this from another forum or searching google.

 

We were bloody lucky it didn't let go, we would've been badly stuck.

 

Sorry mate, I wasn't that guy with the EA72 - never heard of that one.

 

Cheers

Bennie



#99 Ibreakstuff

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:16 AM

Headstuds ordered! 90ft/lbs here I come?

 

Btw: ARP tech support is pretty useless, they don't even know what they sell.. And they ask for way more measurements than they are prepared to calculate. Summit tech support + my redneck math has hopefully guided me properly. 

 

Shorts: ARP AR5-250-1LB
Longs: ARP AR5-750-1LB
 
"Effective stud length" is a deceptive term, apparently for these studs it means the entire length.. 1.25" threads at each end.

 

So 1/2-13 drilled to 1.5" depth with .25" counterbore (depth close to stock). I was going to go with steel inserts (timesert or fulltorque) but I might as well keep that option for a backup plan.

 

I will feel a bit dirty having a 9/16th 12pt in the toolbox.



#100 Caboobaroo

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:42 PM

This is a great thread guys, lots of good information!

I've been playing around with doing some of this to my ER27 as I have a decently built shortblock and a couple heads with port work and Delta cams.

Keep up the good work!




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