jnorion Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I think I need help troubleshooting this process. The engine needs a good deal of tuning at this point still, but right now I just want to get it to start reliably. For the moment I don't care if it runs like crap afterward, I just want to be able to get it started on command. Currently it takes minutes of cranking and pumping the gas for it to catch (if it ever does), and sometimes a shot or two of starter fluid into the carb. Once it starts I can usually keep it going with some careful pumping of the gas until it's warm and then it will idle, albeit fast and not very smooth. But more often than not the starter just cranks with no hint of life from the engine at all. This is a 1978 DL with an EA71 and the stock Hitachi carb. So, back to the starting bit. Here's what I know: The fuel pump works great and pumps lots of gas when cranking. The float bowl fills up to the proper mark. It fires up almost instantly if I spray starter fluid in, so I know the spark is there. This makes me think it's a fuel delivery thing, but I'm not sure where to start. I did a partial rebuild on the carb, in which I replaced the float valve, the accelerator pump, and a bunch of top-end gaskets. I also cleaned the top of the carb and all moving parts on the outside, and adjusted the float. Prior to doing this the float bowl wouldn't fill at all. Where do I go next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 Anyone have brilliant ideas on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I would start by Checking the Timing at the Distributor, then the Choke. I believe that your Carburetor needs a Cleanup... Good Luck! ... Kind Regards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) That's good feedback, thank you. But... I'm actually not sure how to check the timing if the car doesn't run. Do I do that by rotating the engine to TDC and then rotating the distributor til it points to the #1 plug wire and hoping I get it close enough? EDIT: "How to keep your Subaru alive" says that my timing spec is 8°, so I would amend my question above to rotating the engine to 8° to the right of TDC and then rotating the distributor. Edited July 12, 2015 by jnorion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Sometimes the best route to go is Trial and Error, especially with this old-school carbureted engines, so, if you can manage it to start, let it warm a little, then move the distributor slowly counterclockwise and then clockwise, until it seems to run Better, and then move the idle mixture screw on the Carburetor; when it is better at idle, move again slowly the distributor and try accelerating; that will give you an start point to put the timing & mixture closer to where they should be. Also check the PCV valve and hoses for vacuum leaks, correct if necessary. Kind Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Apparently the main problem was in fact the old carburetor. I replaced it with a Weber and did a quick basic tune and she starts right up now! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted November 22, 2015 Author Share Posted November 22, 2015 OK, time to revive this thread for part 2. Not long after my last post above, the car started having trouble starting again, and for the last couple of months it has just refused to start at all. I finally decided to go back to basics and pulled the coil wire, and couldn't get a spark from the coil at all. So today I replaced the coil (for $14 it was worth it for peace of mind), and it still won't spark—as far as I can tell power isn't getting to the distributor at all. I checked the fuse and it appeared to be fine, but for fun I pulled it and jumped the connectors with a screwdriver, and it made no difference. So, what else is in that system that should be checked or replaced? Is there an ignition controller somewhere, and if so where is it? Are there capacitors that need to be tested or replaced? Could this be an alternator problem (seems unlikely because the battery is good)? How do I test where the disconnect is? Battery is new and fully charged. Coil is new. Coil wire is new. Voltage regulator is new. Ground between battery and body is tested and good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) ... So, what else is in that system that should be checked or replaced? ... Check again the Fusibles. Despite they could look alright, corrosion might be doing false contact at their plugs... Kind Regards. Edited November 23, 2015 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 I'm not sure I understand the difference between fusible links and fuses, if there is any. I checked the fuses under the dash and also tried just jumping the contact points of that one, so I don't think that fuse is the problem. Should I be looking somewhere else for fusible links? Yesterday I also discovered that there was no 12v feed to the + side of the coil, so I jumped the battery directly to the coil for testing. A buzzer and warning lights on the dash turned on immediately, so I suspect that something is very wrong in that wiring (ignition switch, perhaps?). But the car still wouldn't start. I realized this morning that I'd never pulled the coil wire after jumping that to see if there was power getting to the distributor, so I still haven't fully isolated the components. Going to do that tonight, hopefully, if it's not too cold to work outside. I also properly set the breaker points yesterday (didn't have access to a feeler gauge the first time around) and replaced the condenser on the outside of the distributor, but then the battery was half dead so I didn't have a chance to test after that. Battery has been on the trickle charger overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Alternator check out ok? Also those old glass fuses can and Will fool you sometimes. Take them out and gently tug on each end and you might find one metal cap end has been loose. It happens. The fusible link on these cars is up front near the voltage regulator. It's fabric covered - two small wires about a couple inches or so long. Old school factory manual suggests we change out alternators and voltage regulators together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 I haven't specifically checked the alternator... the electrical system didn't seem to have any trouble until after the car wouldn't start anymore, at which point the alternator isn't easily testable. I wouldn't mind replacing it anyway, especially if it's recommended to do that with the voltage regulator. I didn't find anything loose on the fuse, although I still don't necessarily trust it, but I did also replace the fuse with a screwdriver to bypass it and jump the connectors directly to each other, and that didn't help. However, now that I know what the fusible links are, I think that's probably a big part of the issue. I'm assuming it's these: … and I'm also assuming that the hole in the insulation (and whatever caused it) is doing me no favors in this process. That probably explains why I wasn't getting 12v to the + terminal on the coil, and also could mean that other things aren't getting power even when I jump that directly to the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 The next question is where do I get a replacement? Rock Auto doesn't have them, Amazon and ebay don't have them, local parts stores don't have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvsarge Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 My subaru dealership was able to order them, for like $30 a piece. Which is outrageous. I believe most people either make their own fusible links (can get fusible wire from Auto parts store) or just put in an inline fuse/breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Ooof, yeah, that's way too much. I think a slow fuse is going to be the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Anyone know what the amperage rating for those is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvsarge Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I think it's 40A? I could be (and probably am) mistaken. I'd wait for one of the resident gurus to chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Quick update to this—I bought and installed a new alternator. The results were... odd. Previously there'd been no power at all to the positive terminal on the coil. I jumped it straight to the battery for testing, at which point I had 12v there, but it still didn't spark. After replacing the alternator, I now have 10v at the positive coil terminal without the jumper. So, a couple of questions: Why would changing the alternator affect this? Keep in mind that the engine is still not starting, so there's no actual power coming from the alternator. The only thing I can think of is if some piece within the alternator burned or separated in some way, and broke the circuit. Where would I look for the missing 2v? Would that be a grounding issue? I measure 12v between the positive terminal of the battery and the car body and between the positive terminal and the engine block, and there's nothing visually wrong with any of the grounds, although I haven't inspected them in detail. EDIT: Another important piece of information is that I recently replaced the voltage regulator as well... it's been a couple of months but the engine has never run in that time. Edited December 4, 2015 by jnorion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 If you're Sure that the Battery is Completely charged, I bet that there is a corroded wiring's contact, around the alternator; and when you swapped alternators, the wiring's contact got somehow "Cleansed" but Not completely, only enough to allow certain part of the voltage, to Flow... Also there might be a false contact at the Groundings / bolts to the Ground. So, I kindly suggest you to unplug all the contacts and do a good Cleansing at each plug, using Electronic Contact Cleaner and some fine sandpaper will do the Trick; also to the bolts that provides the Grounding to the system, and report back the Results. Good Luck, Kind Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Thanks for the tips. I checked the grounds and contacts that I could find today, and wasn't able to discover a problem that way. There's exactly 12.71 volts everywhere in the system that I can measure until it gets to the ignition coil: 12.71v from positive to negative battery terminals 12.71v from positive battery terminal to chassis 12.71v from positive battery terminal to engine block 12.71v from positive battery terminal to ground screw on alternator 10.3v from positive ignition coil terminal to negative battery terminal I think something is bad in the positive wire to the coil, although I haven't hunted it down yet. However, that got me close enough to test some other stuff. I jumped the positive battery terminal straight to the positive coil terminal, and now that I've replaced the alternator I did get a spark out of the coil wire when cranking. So, with the jumper in place, I sprayed some starter fluid in the carb and tried to start the car. What happened when I did that was a big puff of something out of the top of the carb (didn't look like smoke—vapor maybe? the starter fluid?) and it bogged down and wouldn't crank for a moment, like pressure from the engine was counteracting the starter motor hard enough to stop the starter motor from being able to turn it over anymore. My initial guess from this is that either 1) the timing is WAY off, to the point where it's firing on the upstroke and stalling out the movement of the engine, or 2) the plug wires have been mixed up and it's firing in the wrong order. I've been very careful not to remove more than one plug wire at a time so I think it's extremely unlikely to be option 2, but I don't have enough experience with timing to be confident in that diagnosis. Any thoughts? Also, how do you set timing if the engine doesn't run to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Take out spark plug number one up front on passenger side. Take a 22mm socket and slowly crank the engine - at the crankshaft - and with a finger over the plug hole feel for compression stroke. Double check yourself then using something that won't break like a brass drift or whatever works that's handy and slowly crank with that drift etc. in the plug hole watch for its movement outward to come to a stop. When it does don't be afraid to go back a half crank and then back up to verify. Once you're happy it's at its pinical your piston is at Top Dead Center -TDC. That's happy place number one. Now over to the distributor. With the cap off you should see the rotor facing where 1 is on the cap. If not there you need to raise the distributor out and rotate it so it eventually sits with the rotor facing correctly at number one on the cap. It's tricky at first because when you set the disty back in it'll kick over as the teeth of the gears mesh so you'll likely not get it first shot. Don't fret, you'll get it feel like a pro. The cap should have one and three on the passenger side and 2 and 4 on the drivers. I'm hoping you didn't damage the voltage regulator but maybe it's fine. Let us know how the timing was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 OK cool, that sounds like an easy process. Sadly won't get to it today because the car is parked outside and the city looks like this today: Not really feeling like working on electrical stuff in that. One question, though—when I finally replaced the distributor cap, I believe the numbers were in different positions from the one I removed from it. As far as I know I kept the wires in the same positions (i.e. if it was at 2 o'clock on the old cap it's at 2 o'clock on the new one) but they may be marked differently. Those markings are just for convenience, right? As long as the wires are in the proper firing order and the in the proper spot then everything should work normally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I thought that such Floodings were more common here in Honduras, after our Huge caribbean Downpours... I hope everything is alright... ... Those markings are just for convenience, right? As long as the wires are in the proper firing order and the in the proper spot then everything should work normally? Yes, You're Right. Remember the Firing Order 1-3-2-4 and set the wires in the proper order. Kind Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorion Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 I thought that such Floodings were more common here in Honduras, after our Huge caribbean Downpours... I hope everything is alright... Yeah, that's not normal here. Apparently yesterday was the wettest day in recorded history here, and today is expected to have even more rainfall. We'll see how things go. It doesn't affect me directly much, but a lot of the city is having trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I hope everything goes back to normal, Soon. You can see photos of the average Downpour in my Country, Here: ~► http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/87725-an-open-request-to-loyale-27-turbo/page-16?do=findComment&comment=1311210 Back on Topic, you might want to re-check the Wire that feeds Power to the Distributor, maybe it has corroded / loose contacts, thus explain the Voltage loss on said wire only. Kind Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) jnorion, on 06 Dec 2015 - 20:57, said: Any thoughts? Also, how do you set timing if the engine doesn't run to begin with? Engine only needs to crank,not run, in order to use a timing light. If the timing is in the ballpark,you can get it close enough to start by adjusting timing thru its range while a buddy tries to start the car. Most 78s have point type distys. I would check thier condition and adjustment if so equipped. 78 Electronic distys have external ignition control units. Only 10 volts at the coil is problematic. Check the voltage going in/out of the ignition switch/fusible links/fuses key on/off.This will isolate the high resistance connection. It would be well worth pulling and drying the spark plugs w/a torch(stove works too) after so many unsucessful starting attempts. Edited January 2, 2016 by naru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.