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Head Bolts, Re-use, or order new.


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48 replies to this topic

#26 xdeadeye1

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 12:31 AM

ok  I'm confused too after trying to decipher that..

 

do I go ahead and order the TKF-001     

 

I'm looking at this kit.     https://www.ebay.com/itm/401299934403

 

 

2000 outback wagon, 2.5,  automatic


Edited by xdeadeye1, 17 March 2018 - 12:32 AM.


#27 xdeadeye1

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 11:24 PM

I got the engine out.. Pulled the timing cover.  It looks in really good shape.  Previous owner said he changed it at 65k,, its now at 118k.   The pulleys and tensioner are Japanese..  

 

NEK on the rollers.  Not sure about the belt,, didn't see a name yet. 

 

 

Should I go spend the 194 and do the timing / water pump, now?     Current timing belt has 53 k on it. 



#28 idosubaru

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 06:05 AM

As you found, aisin was providing an additional kit. it doesn’t seem common, odd given how many more outbacks there are and they are higher valued vehicles. Unless that’s just around here.

It would be nice to know the precise physical reason there’s a different belt for what is essentially the same engine.

I think it’s the belt teeth that are said to be different. Convoluted considering engines swaps are not rare.

Are the cam sprocket, crank sprocket, and toothed sprocket the same part number for those engines/models? If the teeth are different, and it mattered, those couldn’t be the same.

I never heard of different lower sprocket part numbers. Crank and cam will be confusing since different Katy numbers exist for the two different trigger styles.

Maybe GD or GLoyale old school CCR folks would have something to say?

#29 idosubaru

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 06:09 AM

I’ll check the link you posted.

Edited by idosubaru, 21 March 2018 - 06:15 AM.


#30 idosubaru

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 06:22 AM

If the pulleys are original they should be replaced. You’ll feel them when removed, they won’t spin like new pulleys full of grease.

Since they are intended for 105,000 miles of use on an interference engine it’s generally risky to not replace them or use inferior quality.

Timing belts are easy enough on these engines that if you can DIY you can always check them periodically. Pull the belt at 50,000 miles and see where you’re at if you want to approach this piecemeal - replace just a belt or just the lower sprocket, etc.

The lower sprocket results in immediate engine failure most of the time if it fails and should be replaced evert my time. They’re like $35 from Subaru. The other two idlers the belt can slide over for a while if they seize and it will slowly burn up, giving you some small amount of time.

#31 idosubaru

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 06:36 AM

Not sure. Ideally someone that knows those two distinctions sees this post and confirms later today.

I’d personally go for that kit since those engines are all the same block and heads. But I don’t like recommending “what I’d do” to others.

Worst case buy the kit then you might have to order the belt from Subaru.

Or just get all the parts from Subaru. Online discount Subaru dealers offer 20% lower prices than local dealers. I have a dealer which gives me that discount in person if you want to ask yours to do the same. The price wouldn’t be that much more than that Aisin kit I don’t think. $100 tensioner, $100 pulleys, $50 belt - $250-$300. My connectivity is poor or I’d look up a Subaru kit.

#32 Gloyale

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:03 PM

The really early gaskets (99 to early 02) had problems with coolant weeping. If the gaskets were done after 02 then they shouldn't have this problem.

Regardless- just pull it and reseal it. Change water pump, all the hoses (dealer), and the coolant cross over o-rings.

GD

 

I've got a 2010 Impreza i my shop right now with a weeping drivers side head at the back corner.  Exactly the same as all the other SOHC 2.5s  It still happens



#33 Gloyale

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:09 PM

All SOHC 2.5 belts are the same in terms of # of teeth and width.

 

The lower smooth roller w/lip is the same for all.

 

There are some differences in specs for the lower cogged idler, and the upper smooth one.  Some of them have a single row of balls, some of them have 2 rows of balls.  Not sure which was OE spec'ed for what models, 

 

But I don't order kits, I buy individual parts.  And I always buy the double row rollers.



#34 xdeadeye1

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 09:33 PM

UPDATE:  Timing Belt/rollers   :     ON closer inspection.  The rollers are all Japanese,NSK  or NEK (cant remember) , and the water pump has usab stamped on it.    The belt itself says Gates.,,   Made in USA 

 

I'm assuming the guy changed the belt,, but not the tensioner/ rollers..  I don't know.   I rolled the rollers , I didn't notice any  real bad wobbles ,,  but I could hear the bearings as it was rolling,, and so I'm thinking they need changed.

 

 

I pulled the heads.   

 

The head gaskets seemed to be peeling somewhat.  The rubber coating coming off in various places.   It seems to be a metal center.      There is no stamp or logo on the Head gaskets..    Just grey metal and peeling dark grey rubbery coating.   Both heads were weeping oil  and the drivers side was leaking coolant pretty bad.

 

ALSO    the Head bolts are all the same ,  Gold in color, no markings on them .     I expected to find the center head bolts different but they are the same as the others.

2 bolts have some rust on them. From the passenger side I believe.   I plan on cleaning them up with a wire wheel.  The rusty part was on the smooth bolt shaft.

I remember the guy telling me he got new bolts when he did the head. But I'm wondering if he ever did the heads. 

 

 

Crossover tube.

 

I ordered o rings from rock auto to replace the o rings.        When I opened it up,,, the o rings seem squared.  Is that just from the compression?  The o rings I got are round.


Edited by xdeadeye1, 22 March 2018 - 09:34 PM.


#35 idosubaru

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 06:05 AM

yeah the orings will deform over time and look different, if you mean square cross section, it's just from time/compression/materials degradation. 

 

the rollers will spin freely if they're lacking grease.  new pulleys won't spin because they're full of grease.  seems backwards at first, but that's how it is in this case.



#36 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 04:22 PM

I've got a 2010 Impreza i my shop right now with a weeping drivers side head at the back corner.  Exactly the same as all the other SOHC 2.5s  It still happens

 

Oil - yes. Coolant - No. Not unless the gasket was done improperly after manufacture. Which does happen. The dealer doesn't surface heads.

 

GD



#37 Gloyale

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 04:59 PM

Oil - yes. Coolant - No. Not unless the gasket was done improperly after manufacture. Which does happen. The dealer doesn't surface heads.

 

GD

fair point.  This one was leaking just oil. And just barely.

 

Prophylactic replacement



#38 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 07:29 PM

fair point.  This one was leaking just oil. And just barely.

 

Prophylactic replacement

 

Right. They didn't fix it till the 2011 Legacy and Impreza models. The Forester went FB so never saw the fix. 

 

11 to 13 EJ non-turbo models got the 770 gasket like the WRX. Solving the oil weeping. 

 

The gasket was updated in mid '02 to stop the coolant leakage. It does seem to have worked for the vast majority of the 03+ models that I've seen. I have an '02 Impreza in the shop right now leaking coolant, and an '03 Legacy up next that only leaks oil. Though it's leaking that oil INTO the coolant  :rolleyes:.

 

GD



#39 xdeadeye1

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:16 PM

So do you think my gaskets were just aftermarket junk?  or original?

 

Going to use the same head bolts again.

 

Going to Go ahead and get the Aisin, TKF-001 Timing /waterpump kit.

 

2000 outback wagon.



#40 Gloyale

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 12:29 AM

Right. They didn't fix it till the 2011 Legacy and Impreza models. The Forester went FB so never saw the fix. 

 

11 to 13 EJ non-turbo models got the 770 gasket like the WRX. Solving the oil weeping. 

 

The gasket was updated in mid '02 to stop the coolant leakage. It does seem to have worked for the vast majority of the 03+ models that I've seen. I have an '02 Impreza in the shop right now leaking coolant, and an '03 Legacy up next that only leaks oil. Though it's leaking that oil INTO the coolant  :rolleyes:.

 

GD

 

Yeah I put the 770s in the '10 Impreza.  Not sure what to do with the OE spec gasket that come in the kits I order for all the other gasket and seals.

 

And you are correct,the vast majority of 03+ head gaskets I've done have been for external oil leaks.  

 

Although there have been some internal coolant/oil mixers and pressure steamers that eventually start overheating.  then it's  a must change HG situation and usually been overheated a bunch by then.



#41 xdeadeye1

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 12:13 AM

so 2 head bolts have some rust on them.  not terrible,, but its there.. i was going to clean them up with a wire wheel,, and re use. 

No markings on any bolts.  Just gold in color.  No noticable difference between the middle bolts and outer bolts either. 

 

So i was looking on rock auto and they all say they are TTY on there.

https://www.rockauto... head bolt,5308

 

Im pretty sure these are after market bolts .  No markings. But if you say they are re usable ill use em.. ajusa aftermarkets are 25 bucks.. felpro et all aftermarkets are about 50 bucks.  

 

I know you told me they arent tty,,   I guess the manufacture just wants to sell more bolts?



#42 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 12:32 AM

It only matters what Subaru says. Read the FSM if you still have questions.

Do not wire wheel the bolts. It removes the aluminized anti-friction coating and promotes creaking.

You can buy them individually from Subaru. Just the ones you need.

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder, 27 March 2018 - 12:33 AM.


#43 matt167

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 05:47 AM

Some of the aftermarket publications suggest tty as well, but it's incorrect. It is right in the factory manuals. If someone happened to use aftermarket bolts though. Id probably replace those

#44 xdeadeye1

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 01:50 PM

I just went and ordered a 12 bolt set off ebay of genuine Subaru bolts for like 62 bucks.   I don't think the ones I have are original,, and didn't want to risk it.

 

Should I re build my oil pump while I'm this deep into it?  or leave it alone?



#45 idosubaru

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 01:56 PM

I just went and ordered a 12 bolt set off ebay of genuine Subaru bolts for like 62 bucks. I don't think the ones I have are original,, and didn't want to risk it.

Should I re build my oil pump while I'm this deep into it? or leave it alone?


i would reseal it and tighten the backing plate screws, one or a bunch are always loose. it's really easy, nothing to it. tighten the backing plate screws with locktite, one oil pump oring, RTV and the crank seal.

GD suggests upgrading to a larger 9mm pump if yours has a 7mm pump. some 2000+ EJ25's have a 7mm pump, all 90's stuff had 9mm.

Edited by idosubaru, 28 March 2018 - 01:57 PM.


#46 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 02:47 PM

10mm pump is what we use for most applications. We upgrade the 7's and the 9's to 10's. Some built engines and 08+ STI get the 11mm.

GD

#47 xdeadeye1

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:56 PM

ok,, sorry,,   I have no leaks on my cams...  I'm at 118 k miles.   Should  I pull the cam seals and replace them?

 

Ill get a crank seal , I see on rock auto it comes with two seals so I think one is the oil pump o ring,, and the other is the crank seal.



#48 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:44 AM

Dont touch cam or crank seals. They are viton and its usually good forever.

GD

#49 idosubaru

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 07:46 AM

I would get seals from Subaru for the reasons GD just mentioned. They are excellent materials and some aftermarket seals may use old school materials more prone to leak. .




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