archemitis Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 for the turboes, you couls always rig up a remote mounted set up. mount em under the rear of the brat instead of a muffler. from what ive heard, the intake plumbing running under the vehical cools the air char so that it reduces the need for an intercooler. it would be cool to look into a tail pipe and see the turbine sitting there instead of a muffler. and for protection and a bit of sneakyness, you could get some thing sheet metal and make a muffler looking shell to put over the turbos to hide and help protct them from the elements. i want to try this one day, i hope i can pull it off. turbos work off of heat. not nessecarily exhaust velocity. they have to be close to the head, for the heat to make them turn. stickin them underneath would cool them down, and only increase boost lag, and hurt overall turbo performance. and... its bad enough hitting a tail pipe on a pothole, or curb. just think your preciuos turbo sittin there waitin to get ripped off... screw that. i still say theres no room for turbos. unless you had a full 6 inch lift, or suck them out of the hood. and the radiator... and the intercooler... wrx motor would be cheaper.... i could go on and on... like i said "what if" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 there is actually a company that makes turbo kits that mount the turbo under the rear where the muffler goes. the ay i see it, if you get some thicker walled exhaust pipes and wrap em with insulation, should help keep the velocity up and the temp stable. besides, the exhaust doesnt loose that much velocity by time it gets to the muffler, tends to be the muffler that slows it down. as for turbos not fitting under the car, ive noticed that the space the muffler sits in is larger than any turbo ive seen on a suby, but you would probably have to moddify the other side of you wanted twin turbos. after i get my ea82t built back up with all the go fast bits, i will save a bit of money and try out the remote turbo idea, i just need to find an external oil pump to send oil back to the turbo. im wondering if i could set up the turbo with its own oil system with an external cooler. besides, this will give me a chance to try out new ideas for my subies, granted, i should get it running first. great thing about ding a remote mount set up is that you can use the stock n/a exhaust up to the axle back. just replace th muffler with the turbo assembly. nothing is impossible, not with a positive attitude. i try to keep an open mind about things, especially things that make my car better. i first heard of the remoe turbo set ups from an article in turbo magazine. ill try to find it and post a link to the company that makes the official remote turbo sets. peace tim turbos work off of heat. not nessecarily exhaust velocity. they have to be close to the head, for the heat to make them turn. stickin them underneath would cool them down, and only increase boost lag, and hurt overall turbo performance. and... its bad enough hitting a tail pipe on a pothole, or curb. just think your preciuos turbo sittin there waitin to get ripped off... screw that. i still say theres no room for turbos. unless you had a full 6 inch lift, or suck them out of the hood. and the radiator... and the intercooler... wrx motor would be cheaper.... i could go on and on... like i said "what if" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 i wouldnt do it, but a guy i worked with knew some people running the muffler turbo's in camaro's or firebirds. he said they worked okay. oil supply and ATF cooler in the trunk should supply it okay. same with coolant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 This thread is shifting from 'what if' status to 'absurd' :-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 hehe you said absurd:brow: HEHE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 hehe you said absurd:brow: HEHE How is Project NO BS coming along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archemitis Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 you noobs. you forget. i have done something just like this. keyboards rool! they make it esier to build cars... in your head. i knew a guy who knew a guy who killed this guy with his turbo camaro with the engine in the back. and it was a 4 cylinder. with a turbo up front.... turbos work off heat. anyone will sell anything. theres a sucker born every minute. and when your young your an even bigger sucker. i want to see a twin turbo xt6. but i never will =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Look, turbos do NOT simply work off heat, They are more efficent with hoter gasses but it is the pressure of expending gasses that turns a turbo. I don't care how hot you get a turbo, untill there is some gasses pushing through the turbine houseing , you get NO boost. conversely if you have no heat the turbo will still make boost, if you don't believe me take a turbo and blow an air compressor into the exaust side(could damage turbo, only do it to an old junk one), thats not hot air, but it dose make boost. Is lag an issue in a remoat install, yes. But it is alot easier to install in the back and run some plumbing than it is to pull the motor and bold turbo headers. that is the appeal of remoat mount systems, ease of install and a moderate boost of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archemitis Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 no your not getting it. the turbo will spin at idle. but its not making boost. i have pushed a turbo with a compressor. sounds real cool. but its still not spining fast enough to make boost. boost and moving air are different by the time it get that far back its outta heat and velocity. this is assanine. ever see mitsubishi, or toyota, or subaru try this? cuz if it was cheap, and worked well, they would use it. if your worried about having to pull a motor for a turbo install... you might be a little too timid to try turboing a na motor. im done! the only wat to prove me wrong is to show me. and that aint happenin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 no your not getting it. the turbo will spin at idle. but its not making boost. i have pushed a turbo with a compressor. sounds real cool. but its still not spining fast enough to make boost. boost and moving air are different by the time it get that far back its outta heat and velocity. this is assanine. ever see mitsubishi, or toyota, or subaru try this? cuz if it was cheap, and worked well, they would use it. if your worried about having to pull a motor for a turbo install... you might be a little too timid to try turboing a na motor. im done! the only wat to prove me wrong is to show me. and that aint happenin. Doesn't heat create the velocity in the exhaust gasses to spool the turbo? No, heat doesn't create velocity. Heat creates volume. If you look at any of the physics laws for gasses, you will find that pressure and volume and heat are related. PV=NRT is a popular one, The V isn't for velocity, it is for Volume. The turbine housing is what creates the velocity. The scrolling design that reduces the volume of the exhaust chamber as it scrolls around causes the gasses to have to increase in velocity and pressure to maintain the same flow rate. Hotter gasses have more volume, thus requiring a higher A/R which in effect means that it starts at say 3" and scrolls down to approximately 1". Lower temperature gasses are denser and have less volume, so they require a lower A/R housing which would start at the same 3" volume, as the turbine housings use standard flanges, and scroll down to say 3/4". Now if you were to reverse the housings in application, the conventional turbo would spool up extremely quick, at say around 1500 rpm but would cause too much backpressure at higher rpms because the higher volume of gas couldn't squeeze through the 3/4" hole without requiring a lot of pressure to force it through. On the reverse side, the remote mounted turbo with its cooler denser gasses, wouldn't spool up till say around 4000 rpms but once spooled up would make efficient power because it doesn't require hardly any backpressure to push the lower volume of gas through the larger 1" hole. from http://ststurbo.com/f_a_q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 oh, and those systems are for much longer cars with more plumbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Don't turbos have to be really hot to work properly? Putting a torch to your turbo and getting it hot doesn't produce boost. What produces boost is airflow across the turbine which causes the turbine to spin. If turbochargers required very high temperatures to produce boost, Diesel trucks and Methanol Race cars wouldn't be able to run turbos. However, each of these "Low Exhaust Temperature" vehicles work very well with turbochargers when, like any turbo application, the turbocharger is sized correctly. In a conventional, exhaust manifold mounted turbocharger system, the extra heat causes the air molecules to separate and the gas becomes "thinner" because of the extra space between the molecules. This extra space increases the volume of air but doesn't increase the mass of the air. Because the volume is higher, the velocity of the gas has to be higher to get it out in the same amount of time. By mounting the turbo further downstream, the gasses do lose heat energy and velocity, however, there is just as much mass (the amount of air) coming out of the tailpipe as there is coming out of the heads. So you are driving the turbine with a "denser" gas charge. The same number of molecules per second are striking the turbine and flowing across the turbine at 1200F as there is at 1700F. Front mounted turbos typically run an A/R ratio turbine housing about 2 sizes larger because the velocity is already in the gasses and the volume is so big that the turbine housing must be larger to not cause a major restriction in the exhaust system which would cause more backpressure. With the remote mounted turbo, the gasses have condensed and the volume is less, so a smaller A/R ratio turbine housing can be used which increases the velocity of the gasses while not causing any extra backpressure because the gas volume is smaller and denser. Sizing is everything with turbos. There is more to sizing a turbo for an application than cubic inches, Volumetric Efficiency, and RPM ranges. A turbo must also be sized for the exhaust temperatures. A turbine housing sized for 1700F gasses would have lag if the gasses were 1200F. This is why turbo cars have lag when they are cold and not warmed up yet. Both systems work well if sized correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 sts's systems work http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/f/Video/Z71_Beats_LS1.wmv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 tbird man, you are my hero. there is no problem running turbos in the rear from what ive heard and from people that ive talked to. like said in a few places, as long as you plan things out first and do your homework, there is no reason that this wouldnt work. besides, the exhaust doesnt loos that much heat bytime it reaches the tail pipe. if you dont beleive me, look at my rear bumper cover on my impreza, its melted a bit from contact with the exhaust tip. ive seen n/a cars with holes burned into the bumpers, so it does still hold quite a bit of heat. another benefit of remote mounting is tht you can have a totally seperat oil and coolant source for the turbo, so if the engine craps out, the turbo wont go along with it.you could get external oil coolers and a small radiator and run em with electric pumps and seperate resiviors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Really what Arch is trying to get at here; is that its all theoretical BS untill someone actually does it on a Subaru and proves its not BS. We can debate it into infinity and that's why its theory; not fact. Copying, pasting, typing, and hyperlinking does not prove it works on this application, yes it can highly support the theory, but it does not prove it. On the flip side here nobody has really proven it won't work on a Subaru; again becuase nobody has done it and proved it doesn't work. Doing it and driving it around is proving it; not talking about how we think it can/can't work. So we get down to the real question of who's got the time, money, and know how to actually prove it one way or the other? It goes way beyond putting a turbo on an ER27. Just getting the ER27 into a Brat and getting it solid enough to drive thousands of miles is a major acomplishment. Now turboing or twin turboing that engine is a nother huge task. Then we get into the issue of a drive train that can actually put that power to the wheels and withstand the abuse. Please let this thread slip off into the sun set like every other 'what if' thread on turbo'n or TT'n an ER27 in an EA81. Very few ppl have stuffed an ER27 into an EA81 platform; of which is a major acomplishment itself. Once you are one of those very few individuals then you are on the road to having a turbo ER27 in an EA81 platform. Debating simentacs on the USMB won't get anyone there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 I agree that it is a what if, but since when is "what if" a bad thing, this is what inspires us, when we stop asking what if, we lose what makes us what we are. speaking of what if, what if we let all the what if ideas slip off into the sunset, and someone comes in with the resorces to do something but never hears the ideas of bright men and women that do not have those resorces. Ideas are a great thing, and not something to be kept to onesself. Just my bucko2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSPFI Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 heres some basic physics... high heat/high pressure is attracted to low heat/low pressure places... both heat and pressure escaping to the other side of the turbo cause the turbine to spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 it is not that simple. hot is not attracted to cold, hot gasses are less dense than cold ones, thus they try to float above them. try all you want to discount it but go to sts's web site and look at the FAQ and testamonials. these systems work, how dose a 12sec ext cab 4x4 chevy fullsize truck sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I agree that it is a what if, but since when is "what if" a bad thing, this is what inspires us, when we stop asking what if, we lose what makes us what we are. speaking of what if, what if we let all the what if ideas slip off into the sunset, and someone comes in with the resorces to do something but never hears the ideas of bright men and women that do not have those resorces. Ideas are a great thing, and not something to be kept to onesself. Just my bucko2. without inspiration, whats the point, i though this site wa here to voice opinions and come up witn new ideas. im all about getting contrasting opinions, but whats the point of a forum if every time some one says "what it?" you tell em to basically shut it? ive come up with a lot of ideas about my own cars from other people speculaing about things. lets all try to keep an open mind. id hate to see this site turn into another i-club or nasioc where childish peaple run rampant and good ideas go unheard. just had to go ranting, dont mind me. peace tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Nasioc isn't to bad, every fourm has its Jerks, you just gotta ignore them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSPFI Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I said it was basic it is not that simple. hot is not attracted to cold, hot gasses are less dense than cold ones, thus they try to float above them. try all you want to discount it but go to sts's web site and look at the FAQ and testamonials. these systems work, how dose a 12sec ext cab 4x4 chevy fullsize truck sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 I'm all for new ideas. Forced induction on an ER27 is not a new idea; it's been debated and theorized on here. Putting an ER27 into something else isn't a new idea; it's been done in a few vehicles. But by all means; debate it till your hearts content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 without inspiration, whats the point, i though this site wa here to voice opinions and come up witn new ideas. im all about getting contrasting opinions, but whats the point of a forum if every time some one says "what it?" you tell em to basically shut it? ive come up with a lot of ideas about my own cars from other people speculaing about things. lets all try to keep an open mind. id hate to see this site turn into another i-club or nasioc where childish peaple run rampant and good ideas go unheard. just had to go ranting, dont mind me. peace tim Thanks Tim I glad that not every one is shooting my ideas down. For everyones information all that I am lacking currently to finish my project is time and then you will know if it works or not. I have all the parts minus a few now that I have been trying to aquire for awhile. In case you have not forgotten it is not a fast or easy process to build a car. I just payed all off all my bill so that I can now focus on what i need to have done and that I can afford the build without studder. Hopefully it will be done before the next big gathering so I can share it with the USMB community and hopefully bring others to understand and enjoy and mabe even JOIN our ridiculous love for these cars. THANK YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 Thanks Tim I glad that not every one is shooting my ideas down. For everyones information all that I am lacking currently to finish my project is time and then you will know if it works or not. I have all the parts minus a few now that I have been trying to aquire for awhile. In case you have not forgotten it is not a fast or easy process to build a car. I just payed all off all my bill so that I can now focus on what i need to have done and that I can afford the build without studder. Hopefully it will be done before the next big gathering so I can share it with the USMB community and hopefully bring others to understand and enjoy and mabe even JOIN our ridiculous love for these cars. THANK YOU! Nobody shot any of your ideas down here Gravityman. The only idea underfire was the remote relocation of a turbo where your muffler goes. Some of us are just tired of seeing a whole lot of talk about big ideas and seeing little to no results; it just kinda of boiled over on this particular thread. Everyone is anxiously awaiting to see how your project goes. Why? Cuz it will be the first time someone actually does it instead of talking about it. I was completly seriouse when I asked how it was coming along; it wasnt an attempt to dig on you. You should get license plates that say NO BS when you are done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 dag, i just noticed, a few of you guys live near my grandmother in the blue ridge mountains. she is right off the blue ridge parkway in fancy gap va. we should gt together next time i manage to make it down that way. id love to see a turboed flat 6 that isnt in a porshe. hopefully, ill be able to drive my rx next time i have a chance to get down that way again. hell, maybe ill even come up with a remote turbo on my car, just cause i can, grantd, i have got to save up money just to get the 90k service for te impreza before i can have fun. but once i get things underway, i am going to make a lot of progress on my rx, and hopefully gt my engine built up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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