rruge Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 1996 Subaru Legacy Outback Purchased brand new January 1, 1996 2.5L Automatic with 145k miles. Firstly, this message board rocks . Everyone involved makes it work very well for the home and pro mechanic. Keep up the good work! I found oil residue in my coolant reservoir. I cleaned that out and topped off my coolant with about a cup or two of water and coolant back into the coolant system. Two weeks later, I rechecked it to find more oil in the reservoir and low coolant level. Based on my readings of our user group, it looks like an internal head gasket leak. So now I am wondering about my options... Replace the motor with a rebuild. Preliminarily, I found a rebuild for $3000 in Denver within an hour of my house. Add hoses and time to swap external parts. Obviously the least time consuming. Replace the heads with rebuilds. Risk a cracked engine block. The only risk would be the time put into tearing the engine apart before finding a crack. Then I would need to wait for a rebuild. Resurface the heads and replace all gaskets and seals. Risk a cracked block or head. Considerations/questions... I just found the problem and I believe very early on. So I am not in dire straits... yet. I am still driving the car in to work about 10 miles each way. I would guess I have at least a few months. Will I likely need to rebuild the motor soon anyway? What has been the typical life span of this motor? Have I already reached it? I have a day job so getting the work done over a weekend would be fairly important. We do have a second car. However, we also have a family life. Would it be easier overall to pull the motor out to get the heads pulled off? Can you guys give me a ballpark idea of how many hours each option might take? How long have these options actually taken some of you guys and what is your level of expertise? I am interested to know how long a professional can do it AND how long a do-it-yourselfer might take. I might just have a pro do it if I can justify that. I am in Colorado Springs CO. Does anyone know of an honest mechanic out here? What about special tools: pulley puller, engine stand, engine hoist, torque wrench, etc.? What other tools would I need if I were to do the work? What is that one tool that stopped you from finishing the job over a weekend? Where is a good source for rebuilt heads or a rebuilt motor? Could you guess that I am an engineer?? I am obviously concerned about overall cost and time. Any answers would be greatly appreciated. I will probably post pictures later. Thanks for reading. Make it a great day! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 i would suggest contacting CCR. they are even a member of this board (emily). they are highly regarded in the subaru world. that's a very good option to take. comes with a warranty, highly regarded people and work, very few questions, low down time, no worries about a cracked block, etc. and you're right there in CO. if you're competent yourself, buy the engine and install it yourself. if it's an automatic, just be sure you know the trick to seating the torque converter so you don't hose your trans. there's plenty of info on the boards here including a site dedicated to the process of doing this job yourself, search for it and yo'ull find it. i printed that web page out and have it at home for reference. he claims 48 hours of total time into the job...but admits to taking his time. consensus seems to be it can be done in half that time or less. a shop can have it done in a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkib Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 RRuge, I just did this myself, although my car is a little different - 1991 Legacy 2.2. From what I have read, the 2.2 and 2.5 are very similar... I took 3 days this past weekend to complete the job, having never worked on a Subaru before (all my engine experience is on Fords and Volvos). Armed with only information found on this board, we (my 22 year old son and I) pulled the motor, removed the heads, installed new head gaskets, and re-installed the motor, while missing 1 connection on the re-install (the water line between the block and the intake manifold). We had a situation where we were blowing all the coolant out through the overflow bottle, and based on what we read here, chose to do the head gaskets. We took a chance and did not have the heads magnafluxed, since our timeline was very short. In our case it worked out - it was only a head gasket. We used a handful of metric shallow sockets, a 14mm deep socket, 14mm flex head socket, 22mm socket (1/2 drive), 17mm socket (1/2 drive), some antisieze (on the trans/engine dowels on re-assembly), black RTV (for the oil pan) and new gaskets, o-rings, etc. We used a 20-100 ft-lb torque wrench and a 50-150 torque wrench (for the crank pulley). The engine stand REALLY helped us, if you can get one - I borrowed one from a friend (you will need a couple of 6" 10mm x 1.25 bolts for this). As with all jobs, I used this one to augment my tool set - I bought a 3/8 drive air ratchet... I also replaced the timing belt and tensioner pulley (mine had a little too much play), accessory drive belts, plugs, wires, rear main seal, front main seal, oil pump gasket (there was none - just black RTV when we tore it down), and water pump and gasket while we were in there. The worst part was getting the crank pulley off. I finally ended up getting a 3-jaw puller on it to get it off... This Board ROCKS :headbang:! When we ran into trouble or had a question (torque settings, etc.) we had an answer from the gazillions of posts already here. I would not hesitate to do this again, based on what I learned, and what this board contains... Hope this helps, Keith Kibler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rruge Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 i would suggest contacting CCR. ...buy the engine and install it yourself. if it's an automatic, just be sure you know the trick to seating the torque converter so you don't hose your trans. Thanks for your reply. Yep, I believe I already have contacted CCR - Denver for a rebuild. That's would definitely be the easiest and safest route. However, $3000 is a good chunk of change. Regarding hosing the tranny, I would think that... you wouldn't want to force anything on too hard and jiggle driveshaft or flywheel as the engine goes in Correct or add to this list as necessary. I have had quite a bit of experience with installing and removing the older VW bug motors. I hate to overanalyze, but I would like to hear more about the life expectancy of the 1996 2.5L motor. For example, what is considered high mileage for this motor; i.e. are only 10% of these motors making it past 200k? It would be nice to have a statistics database to tap on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve455 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 My 96 outback has about 250,000 on it ,just did the headgaskests 6 months ago.the carstill has 150 # s of compression in the cylinders.When the 2.5 goes im going to put a 2.2 in it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montana105 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ruge,I wouldn't assume you need a new engine or to have your heads reworked.You don't mention any overheating problems,you seem to check your fluids regularly and with that you may have avoided disaster. I wouldn't hesitate replacing the head gaskets and timing components (since it's out) and be worry free for another 150000 miles,that's pretty cheap compared to a rebuild or getting your heads magnafluxed etc...The fact that you found the problem early is gonna save you some serious $$$.From the posts I've read I'd say you are at the high end of the spectrum as far as mileage goes if you're gonna experience the annoyance of the 2.5 gasket issue. Seems to me most gasket issues happen between 80000 and 100000 miles and they seem to be more problematic with later year models.For the masters out there is this engine involved with the fluid additive recall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 his 96 is not under the fluid additive or extended warranty options. that's for the later generation external leaking EJ25's. the torque converter of the 4EAT in your car is tricky to seat. seems like it is and it's really close, but the last 1/4" is hard to tell and bolting it up like that will break things. knowing is most of that battle, like you said, don't force it. i was looking at buying a "pristine" Legacy GT sedan..like right now... with a headgasket "prone" EJ25 motor in it that has 273,000 miles on it and it runs like a dream. second owners and they don't believe the headgasket was ever replaced. they aren't the 2.2 EJ22 engine, but they are quite capable if the headgaskets hold. replacing the headgasket is typically a $1,000 - $1,500 job. follow up failures are rare, plenty on here are running with replaced headgaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 And now another vote. If I had a 96 2.5 with near 150,000 miles on it I'd just change the head gaskets. Everything else is now 10 years old and it seems you are puting 15,000 miles a year on it. I'd figure if I put $1500 in it with a good mechanic I'd likly get at least three more years without a car payment and I'd be pretty satisfied. That's $500 a year so it is not too bad and odds are excellent the rest of the engine and most of the car will last that long. If you do a search here I am pretty sure there have been posts from Subaru mechanics in Colorado, but I'm not sure how close to you they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Your forgetting one other thing. You will need to either have the radiator professionally cleaned or replace it. Oil + antifreeze + water + air (from sitting empty once you yank the engine) = Glue. Since you have owned the car since new, i vote for the HG replacement with the head rebuild. The 2.2 is unbeatable, and even if god forbid the engine went poof. you would still have to get the heads rebuilt anyway with a new shortblock. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rruge Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 ...replacing the headgasket is typically a $1,000 - $1,500 job. follow up failures are rare, plenty on here are running with replaced headgaskets. Do you think that would be a ballpark $1500 with rebuilt heads vs. $1000 without? If so, I would lean towards a simple head gaskets replacement option and do the work myself. I think the materials shouldn't amount to more than $200 unless I need a new head. What about resurfacing the heads? I heard that may be necessary. As far as finding a cracked head, I would visually inspect the head but I could also compression test the motor after gasket replacement and while it's on the engine stand. Once I open up the motor, there should also be signs of where the leak(s) occurred, shouldn't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 What about resurfacing the heads? I heard that may be necessary. It's always necessary to take them to a machine shop and at the very least have them checked. If they need it they need it. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 do yourself a favor and take the heads to the same machine shop that the local Subaru guys use. You don't want to be the first one they have done. Then do what they reccomend. You also want to look at the water pump, tensioners, and reseal it. A Subaru mechanic would have figured all that in. Nipper is right you always clean or replace a radiator when you have it out for major service. when I said $1500 I was figureing what a local Subaru mechanic would charge to do the entire thing. I've heard prices as cheap as $1200 in you area but it seems you always find something you did not expect when you take soemthing apart. For example all hoses are probably tired and fan belt, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 $1,500 includes sending the heads to a machine shop and having them tested and milled. that step should never be skipped, your heads will be fine and won't require much work. the $200 in parts figure you mentioned is probably a little light. i don't know the history of your car but while you're in there it is likely you'll want to address the water pump, probably at least the geared sprocket timing pulley if not another one and maybe the tensioner as well. they add up fast at $50-$80 each. then add in a new timing belt, rear separator plate (get a metal one and replace yours if it's plastic), thermostat, cam seals and possibly some shims if you do a valve adjustment... you'll want to visit the head gasket replacement website i mentioned. he documented 48 hours of work, but he took a long time...i only say that so you know which website i'm referring to. he lists all the parts and prices and how to do the job and the valve adjustment nonsense too. you will want to read through that, it's very comprehensive and to the point. you will not need much more than that website alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Gary's advice is good. A lot of it depends on if you have more time or money. In my case I just paid to have someone do the job as I figured it would tie my car up for at least a week if I did it myself. It took me at two weekends to put struts and brakes on as I did one end the first weekend and the other the next weekend. A lot of us have to do mechanical stuff along with a lot of other boring chores like go to work, get groceries, etc. It would be different for me if I had a spare engine sitting around to work on and could just swap it out. By the way I have always hated valve adjustment with shims like the early 2.5. those things are so finicky and quite try my patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 cookie brings up a headache saver for you....if you're doing the valve adjustment, read up about it alot...again, back to that website i mentioned, he details that process fairly well and goes into all the details about how hard it is to come up with the right shims at the dealer. read up and look into it ahead of time and check your local dealer what they have in stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rruge Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 you'll want to visit the head gasket replacement website i mentioned. he documented 48 hours of work, but he took a long time...i only say that so you know which website i'm referring to. he lists all the parts and prices and how to do the job and the valve adjustment nonsense too. you will want to read through that, it's very comprehensive and to the point. you will not need much more than that website alone. Hey Gary, Can you give the URL to the web site? I have tried to find that on USMB and a general Google search as well with no luck. Thanks dude. ...geared sprocket timing pulley... Is that the sprocket drive pully that sits behind the crankshaft pulley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rruge Posted March 22, 2007 Author Share Posted March 22, 2007 you'll want to visit the head gasket replacement website i mentioned. he documented 48 hours of work, but he took a long time...i only say that so you know which website i'm referring to. he lists all the parts and prices and how to do the job and the valve adjustment nonsense too. you will want to read through that, it's very comprehensive and to the point. you will not need much more than that website alone. Can anyone help out? I am looking for the "head gasket replacement website" that Gary is referring to. Also, I am a little discouraged with fixing this Subaru now since I have made some calls and found that rebuilt heads are expensive and hard to come by for the 2.5L; about $400 each locally and non-dealer. BapGeon let me know that his local rebuilders cannot rebuild a cracked head due to some problems related to the crackage. I have not yet determined if there is a crack, but I want to be prepared. I would want to get another 50k to 100k from the car. So I may want to go with a new/rebuilt head anyway. Is it reasonable to think that the original head will last 244k miles if I find it in good condition? Subaru (1stsubaruparts.com) wants about $370 MSRP/$270 discounted for (I assume) a new one. Maybe I should just plan on ordering one if the need arises. I will call them to be sure about timing and if it's a new head; i.e. availability, etc. Is there a good online resource for getting the rebuilt head for the 2.5L? Thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Thotherskip did a good post http://mysite.verizon.net/vze730qe/index.html I found it locked but perhaps the more computer literate here can help. You will find more good stuff on the endwrench (Subaru's help for indy mechanics), as well as there is an online manual somewhere to download that may help. Don't worry so much about haed replacement as most only need surfacing at worst. Somebody else did a good post with pix in the FAQ at the top of the new gen intro page. The search function should help you with info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnwolftrack Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 If it were me, I wouldn't plan on valve jobs, cracked heads, resurfacing, until you have the heads checked out. If you tell the machine shop to rebuild them completely, they will. However, you most certainly can tell them you just want to do what's necessary. In that case, they will clean the heads, check for cracks (and stop doing any more work if they are cracked), check the deck surface for warpage, resurface only if needed, check the valve train, and if everything looks ok, you'll probably get out of there with just a cleaning and resurfacing. No point in completely rebuilding or buying new heads if the old ones are good. Make sure the machine shop has worked on Subaru's before, as previously mentioned. Although, I have brought heads in before to shops that had not seen certain heads before, and they still did fine jobs (they have books to look up specs). Chances are, if the headgaskets were leaking, you'll likelyi be able to see the failure point in the gasket (eroded away or split) and some staining on the head/block. Try to be gentle pulling the headgaskets off, and you can take them to the machine shop and have them take a look if you can't find a failure point. It may help you to do a leakdown test (or at a bare minimum a compression test) to see which cylinder(s) has the leak. Then you can pinpoint where you should be looking for a failure. If your headgasket is in fact failing, there's no timeline you have to be assured you can keep driving it. The best advice is to stop driving it ASAP to prevent any additional damage. If your car has not overheated yet, then you should have minimal repair work to do. If it overheats, then the probability of the nasty stuff (cracked head, block, etc...) escalates, along with repair costs. I have done most all my headgasket jobs myself (all of them on non-subaru vehicles), and all of them have been around $500-$600 for new gasket sets (typically referred to as a valve grind set or head gasket set), machine shop work, and misc. supplies such as coolant, oil, RTV, etc.... All my previous experience has been on more complicated V6 and V8 engines, so I can only imagine the cost to do a headgasket job yourself is going to be in this ball park. It would of course depend on how far you go, such as timing belt, misc. belts, water pump, plugs, wires, coolant hoses, etc... You can get nickle-and-dime'd pretty quick on these things. But, you'll get dime-and-quarter'd if you are paying someone to do it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rruge Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 By the way, I found a good reference posting for my case... see http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=27848. Good stuff that goes over many tips and tricks while bearbalu was doing his head gasket, timing belt, valve clearance, and clutch job. He also refers to the "locked" web site that cookie mentioned at http://mysite.verizon.net/vze730qe/index.html published by theotherskip. I just researched that theotherskip has a new web site where he keeps what I think is what cookie was referring to at... http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/Head_gasket_replacement.html. Very good stuff and definitely part of what I was looking for. Thanks to all who have helped. I will post some pics and an update when I have more questions or information. Peace, out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarudean Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I have been battling the coolant being forced back through the reservoir for the last 40k. Head gaskets were done at 110 k and now I am at 197k. Had the car to several mechanics who were stumped ....until I found this post on " coolant forced back into reservoir bottle" thank you USMB! My compression is all @ 180 pounds. My radiator is new . I have black brown droplets in the coolants. I want to keep the car till 250k. I will need a mechanic to do the job for me . Is this 100% sure and gaskets? What else am I going to be involved with. Would be better just to swap JDm engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarudean Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 The puzzling thing is compression is good at all cylinders , can the head gasket still be blown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarudean Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 What are you guys think of the EJ 20 engine. It's JDM 2 liter swap on eBay. One thousand dollars plus shipping, This will be my third head gasket job. Maybe I should just go with the newer engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 They routinely pass compression tests. That's not even a test I've ever bothered to do on EJ25's, generally inconclusive. You haven't mentioned any overheating symptoms - they usually overheat. make sure it's diagnosed properly. Do an EJ22 swap. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/153118-ej22-or-ej18-swap-into-ej25d-dohc-vehicle/ Or yeah, i'd run an EJ20 if you can get an NA one that's plug and play. EJ20 is 120hp Ej22 is 135hp EJ25 is like 165hp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarudean Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 You haven't mentioned any overheating symptoms - they usually overheat. make sure it's diagnosed properly. EJ20 is 120hp Ej22 is 135hp EJ25 is like 165hp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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