Removing Woodruff Key on 1995 2.2L Subaru legacy

[jimdanahand]

I got an old Subaru Legacy that the crankbolt backed off (previous owner replaced engine and must not have properly torque it). The Crank pulley (harmonic balancer) was ruined but the crank looks okay. My problem is the halfmoon shaped woodruff key won't come out. I've pushed from the back by the crank sprocket and also tried to pull up but can't get it out. I can wiggle it but it is warned down and slightly bent from the the pulley came loose. I rented a sprocket pulling tool but couldn't get it down in the space between the engine and the radiator. I've had one mechanic tell me to file the key down then pull the sprocket and another tell me to break the sprocket off! Any suggestions on how I can get the key out? Help would be appreciated. I'm about to give up! Thanks.

 

Jim

[idosubaru]

i'm not picturing the problem very well. you're trying to remove the crank pulley or sprockets or everything? what exactly are you tryhing to accomplish?

 

remove the radiator, it's very easy and will give you more room to work. and, it's very easy to damage it anyway when you're doing work down there.

[Steve455]

The same thing happened to me about 2 months ago.What i ended up doing is pounding a chisel in the back of the crank sprocket,it worked but i also had to replace the oil pump because the chisel messed it up.There was no outher way i could get the sprocket off even a puller wouldnt work.

[jimdanahand]

I only want to replace the worn/slightly bent woodruff key with a new one and place a new pulley. I don't want to remove the sprocket or anything else. I just can't the key to come out. I'll pull the radiator if I need to but I still don't know how I'm going to get the key out. Any further advice?

[idosubaru]

can you post a picture of it?

 

unless it's in really bad shape, i would reuse the key that's in there and leave it...of course i say this without seeing it so take that into account. if it's just a little marred but appears perfectly functional then i wouldn't remove it. file it maybe as necessary?

 

if it's really difficult to remove due to damage and the end of the crankshaft was affected at all as well, it's likely going to be a bear to install a new key as well and it may not fit all that well...depending on the damage, again i can't see it.

 

keep in mind there's a kit made specifically to fix this, just in case it gets worse or you find out you can't fix it later. i suspect you won't have any troubles, but knowing is good.

[NOMAD327]

If the question is how to remove a woodruff key from it’s groove with the crank pulley removed, this is how I loosen one up: First put on a little oil, and then use a pin punch or long bolt about the same size as the key’s width, and tap down a bit on the top of one end of the key. Just a little movement is enough, you are trying to rotate the round bottom key in the round bottom keyslot. Next, tap down on top of the opposite end of the key to try and rotate it back. If it’s moving a bit, it should come out of the groove OK. With the key turned so the outer end is angled up a bit, either grab it with pliers, or using a cold chisel, gently tap under the tipped up end of the key to lift it up out of the groove. If you can’t get it to move like this, heat may be required. Lightly file or sand both faces of the key once it’s out to remove any buildup, and clean the groove before going back together.

[2X2KOB]

You should remove the radiator and use the puller. It's the quickest way.

[DerFahrer]

I only want to replace the worn/slightly bent woodruff key with a new one and place a new pulley. I don't want to remove the sprocket or anything else. I just can't the key to come out. I'll pull the radiator if I need to but I still don't know how I'm going to get the key out. Any further advice?

 

You HAVE to remove the sprocket. The sprocket rides on the woodruff key too. You don't have any choice but to do a timing belt job with this too.

[jimdanahand]

Thanks for the advice. I'm tempted to take GrossGary's advice and just try to re-use the key. it's rounded down on one corner and slightly angled to one side but still has enough body to hold the new crank in place. I put the new crank pulley on and was able to rotate the crank with the pulley so it seemed to hold but there is a risk of tearing up another pulley or worse ruining the crank if the key doesn't hold. I've already tried NOMAD327's advice but it seems the sprocket needs to be removed to rotate the woodruff key out. I agree with Subyluvr2212 that I probably need to remove the sprocket but I've never changed a timing belt so not sure what that will entail. Breaking the sprocket off with a chisel as Steve455 sounds risky. I already attempted to use a puller but it was too big to fit into the housing and grapple to the outside of the sprocket. It sounds like to just put in a new woodruff key, I've got to pull the radiator, remove the housing, pull the sprocket, replace the timing gear, and hire a mechanic for fix everything I screw up! Maybe I'll just sell it to the dump for scrap. Thanks.

[OB99W]

Thanks for the advice. I'm tempted to take GrossGary's advice and just try to re-use the key. it's rounded down on one corner and slightly angled to one side but still has enough body to hold the new crank in place. I put the new crank pulley on and was able to rotate the crank with the pulley so it seemed to hold but there is a risk of tearing up another pulley or worse ruining the crank if the key doesn't hold.[...]

What's critical is that the key maintains proper positioning of the crank sprocket; as long as that's okay, the crank pulley situation isn't as big a deal. If you're able to fully seat the new crank pulley and there doesn't seem to be much rotational play, I'd agree with Gary and also suggest reusing the key. If you don't mind a pun (and even if you do ), the "key" to keeping the pulley in position is to torque the bolt correctly, even if the Woodruff is marginal.

 

 

Maybe I'll just sell it to the dump for scrap.

Now that sounds a bit extreme.

[lmdew]

Get a small chunk of angle iron 1/4 or 3/8" thick with 1 or so legs. Tap the crankshaft timing gear for bolts, there are two holes in there already. Drill the angle iron for the puller bolts and then pull it off.

[OB99W]

Get a small chunk of angle iron 1/4 or 3/8" thick with 1 or so legs. Tap the crankshaft timing gear for bolts, there are two holes in there already. Drill the angle iron for the puller bolts and then pull it off.

Assuming a new crank pulley will mount decently, unless the key is mangled where it interfaces with the crank sprocket or the sprocket itself is damaged (causing timing issues, etc.), why pull the sprocket?

[idosubaru]

but there is a risk of tearing up another pulley or worse ruining the crank if the key doesn't hold.

now...remember, i'm not recommending this, because without seeing and knowing what's going on i can't really make a good call. but...this might comfort you some. you can install crank pulleys without any key or any pin to hold it in place. if you crank it on tight enough...very, very tight to the crank, it won't move anyway. line it up perfectly without anything to hold it, and crank it tight. it's not aluminum like the block. the crank and bolt are cast iron and can take quite a bit of tigthening. make sure the bolt threads and hole threads are nice and clean and torque it. i take a 1/2" socket wrench with a 3 foot pipe and give it some good stank. again, i'm not recommending doing it without a key, but i'm just saying that if it can hold without a key, that might comfort you some about yours being a little messed up.

[ShawnW]

Use a set of Dykes. (channel lock wire cutters) Grab it flush to the crank and pull the cutters upward while grabbing the key.

 

Damaged key kits available from www.s-wingstuff.com call them for details the kit isnt online.

[jimdanahand]

I went ahead and placed the new pulley on the with the old key. It seems to work just fine. There is a slight wobble to the pulley as the car is running but I assume thats normal. I torqued the crank bold to 78 ft-lb as stated in my repair manual. I'm wondering if I should pull it off and put some blue locktight and crank even higher to make sure it doesn't backoff again? Now just need to find the small oil leak (slight burning oil on passenger side (I assume it's the rocker arm gasket but not obvious). The last think is the top seat belts don't retract which I assume may be a fuse? It's running pretty good so I guess it will live another day to be abused by my 19 year old son! Thanks for all the advice. This is a great forum with alot of helpful members.

 

Jim

[Skip]

Jim,

The torque value you found is wrong.

The value has been updated by Subaru to 125 lb-ft

I have a Legacy turbo EJ22T with the same problem.

 

I'm betting there are a lot of people that used

that torque value

and down the road guys like us are paying the piper.

 

Please read this post where I was corrected.

Hope this helps.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70943&highlight=crank+pulley

[johnceggleston]

There is a slight wobble to the pulley as the car is running but I assume thats normal.

 

Jim

this is not normal, mine did this just before it failed and i almost had to scrap it (93 leg). my second one started doing it and i had it repaired (95 leg).

 

i don't recommend letting it run this way. if the bolt gives up the only thing holding the crank sprocket is the key. if the key gives up you have a real mess.

 

i wonder if the crank sproket has a wobble? the difficulty in removing the key may have been due to some damage there. ? i don't know.

 

just my opinion.

[OB99W]

I went ahead and placed the new pulley on the with the old key. It seems to work just fine. There is a slight wobble to the pulley as the car is running but I assume thats normal. I torqued the crank bold to 78 ft-lb as stated in my repair manual. I'm wondering if I should pull it off and put some blue locktight and crank even higher to make sure it doesn't backoff again? [...]

Some comments and questions:

 

1) Normally, there should be very little runout of the crank pulley. Just how much of a wobble is there?

 

2) The crank pulley is made of two metal pieces joined by rubber. If the rubber fails, the parts may begin to separate. Is the "new" pulley really new, or just "new to you" (from an "auto parts recycler" )?

 

3) As Skip already mentioned, the pulley bolt needs to be tighter;, 125 ft-lbs and locking agent isn't a bad idea, but with the locking agent it may not be "fun" to remove the bolt next time.

 

4) I'd suggest removing the pulley again and making sure there's no visible damage to the sprocket or other reason that the pulley won't seat correctly. If you're using a used pulley, you might try getting another one and see if it runs truer, or perhaps get an actually new one.

[jimdanahand]

Thanks for the correction on the torque. You probably just saved me have the same problem or worse again. I'll crank it up to 125 ft-lb.

 

The pulley is a used one. The wobble is very slight so I think I'm going to just keep an eye on it to see if it worsens.

 

Thanks.

[jimdanahand]

We'll I just tried to torque the crankshaft bolt to 125 ft-lb and it broke!!!! I know have half a bolt stuck in the crankshaft!! Anyone know how I can get it our or am I know looking at a complete engine rebuild. I caution anyone to crank a bolt this high. Lesson is I should have got a new bolt before putting this much torque on it. I'm extremely frustrated.

 

Jim

[DerFahrer]

I should have stepped in. 125 is too much. Supposed to be 110.

 

 

Remember, without the head on the bolt, there's nothing torquing the remnant down. At least just stick a screwdriver in there and try to back it out first.

 

Or did you use Loctite?

[idosubaru]

We'll I just tried to torque the crankshaft bolt to 125 ft-lb and it broke!!!! I know have half a bolt stuck in the crankshaft!! Anyone know how I can get it our or am I know looking at a complete engine rebuild. I caution anyone to crank a bolt this high. Lesson is I should have got a new bolt before putting this much torque on it. I'm extremely frustrated.

 

Jim

 

wow, that is crazy. im really sorry to hear that. i don't even use a torque wrench i know i go way over the 125 mark with my 3 foot breaker bar...and i've never seen one break. i would imagine the stresses that it has been through weakened it.

 

well this isn't the end of the world, you can do this. doesn't require anything major and i gaurantee you this bolt will come out. actually it's not even seized, old or rusted, this won't be bad at all. i've extracted seized, 2 decaded old, rusted, weaked, bolts before and gotten them out. this won't be bad.

 

i agree with mike, i would immediately try to back it out. if you have any metal to grab on to you can use vise grips or a monkey wrench. you might try grabbing it and turning it with anything you can. maybe you can JB weld something to the end...let it dry and see if that holds enough to back it out? needle nose pliers maybe?

 

those ideas probably won't work. there are a few options. remove the radiator and get as much room to work as you can.

 

like he just said, it's not in there all that tight with the head sheared off. the easiest way and what i would do is tack weld a bolt onto the sheared off end. let it cool down and back it out with the bolt you just welded on. this is by far the quickest and easiest method and will work every time here as the crank and bolt are easy to weld on.

 

if you can't weld or don't know anyone else that can, then it's time to get a cobalt drill bit (available at any home improvement store). drill into the sheared off crank pulley. then tap it and thread a smaller bolt into the hole with some locktite or JB weld. yo'ure trying to permanently fix the bolt to the remaining crank bolt. let it dry and then back it out with a socket wrench.

 

you may also drill two holes big enough for needle nose pliers to fit in, insert them into the two holes and turn the bolt out.

 

you will have to order one as they rarely have them available locally unless you have good supply stores, but i would get left handed cobalt drill bits. in this case it will be worth it to you as you want this to be as simple as possible. often just drilling with a lefthanded bolt will cause the bolt to back out since it's drilling while turning it "out". be sure if you do any drilling or welding to let it cool down, as the bolt will be expanded and probably harder to get out when it's hot.

 

you'll probably also need a right angle drill or right angle drill attachment (that's what i have for the front of the engine stuff like this and it works fine).

[jimdanahand]

I've removed the radiator to give my self some working room and bought a set of easy bits by Powerbit. I already triet to just back the broken bolt out but it won't come back. I assume there is no torque left on it unless it bottomed out. The bolt broke 1/4" down the treads or 1-1/2" down from the bolt head. I'm concerned about drilling the pilot hole and avoiding damaging the crank threads. I don't have any welding equipment so I'll just have to go for it unless some else has any good idea.

 

Jim

[OB99W]

We'll I just tried to torque the crankshaft bolt to 125 ft-lb and it broke!!!![...]

I'm sorry you're experiencing such grief. Having that bolt break before hitting 125 ft-lbs is really surprising. Many have been tightened with a lot higher torque without problem. See:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70738

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=69255

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=68662

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58267

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=39922

 

Perhaps the bolt was previously over-stressed, or possibly not the proper grade.

 

 

I caution anyone to crank a bolt this high. Lesson is I should have got a new bolt before putting this much torque on it. I'm extremely frustrated.

I understand your frustration, but if you had left the bolt torqued to 78 ft-lbs, it likely would have loosened again. Given hindsight, a new bolt would have been prudent, but you had no reason to expect a problem; the threads I gave links to above bear that out.

 

 

I've removed the radiator to give my self some working room and bought a set of easy bits by Powerbit.

I'm not familiar with those. Are they screw extractors ("easy outs")?

 

 

I already triet to just back the broken bolt out but it won't come back. I assume there is no torque left on it unless it bottomed out.

If the bolt was original, it shouldn't be bottomed. Since it broke, the elastic limit was exceeded, and it will be somewhat stretched, especially near the break. That will make it a bit "snug", but you should still be able to remove it with a little effort.

 

 

The bolt broke 1/4" down the treads or 1-1/2" down from the bolt head.

How do the threads in the crank look for that 1/4"? If the bolt was turned much after it broke, the threads on it (hopefully) or the crank (hopefully not) would be damaged for 1/4". Obviously, if the crank threads are distorted, it will make removing the bolt remnant more difficult.

 

 

I'm concerned about drilling the pilot hole and avoiding damaging the crank threads. I don't have any welding equipment so I'll just have to go for it unless some else has any good idea.

As Gary already mentioned, drilling with a left-handed bit (and a reversible drill set for CCW rotation, naturally) will (often) cause the broken bolt to back out, assuming it's not somehow stuck. Gary gave some other good ideas.

 

Be careful if you're using an "easy out". One possible problem is that they can expand the bolt, making it harder to remove. Another is that they're made of very hard material, and if you break one off, removing it and what's left of the bolt is much more difficult than just the broken bolt.

 

Best of luck with this problem. Take it slowly, and get back to us if there are other questions.

[OB99W]

I should have stepped in. 125 is too much. Supposed to be 110.[...]

Higher torque (in some case, significantly) has been used without breakage -- see the thread links in post #24, above. A bolt that supposedly can be safely torqued to 110 ft-lbs, but breaks before 125 ft-lbs is reached, is one that was already weakened. Otherwise you're implying that there's only about a 10% safety margin at 110 ft-lbs, which would be risky for lots of reasons, including that variations in torque wrench calibration and thread lubrication could easily account for 10% differences.