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Guest Message by DevFuse
 

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new clutch; pedal has a soft spring to it


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19 replies to this topic

#1 98sub2500leg

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 11:39 PM

This doesn't feel right at all. There isn't much feel there, light foot press, not the norm.
Replaced flywheel, pressure plate, clutch, and bearing during last C/H job. Was working fine before that. Not sure if it is a cable adj or bad hydrolic cylinder.

#2 STI_Wolf

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 01:52 AM

might be an air bubble in the line or just a cheaply made pressure plate..

Ive bought a cheep flea-bay clutch a while back for my mazda and it didn't have as much feel as the previous clutch did...

#3 Fairtax4me

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 11:09 AM

Is this an OEM replacement part or after market?

Does the clutch release all the way when the pedal is fully depressed?

#4 Durania

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 11:14 AM

What year and model is the car for starts?

Sounds to me like text book slave cylinder failure.

(Of course that depends on your MY)

#5 nipper

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 04:27 PM

Did you replace the throw out bearing clips with new ones?


Does the car shift?

nipper

#6 davebugs

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 06:33 PM

You have a PM.

#7 nipper

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 06:40 PM

You have a PM.



Ever notice how none of us are morning people? No one ever has an AM.


:lol:

#8 98sub2500leg

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 07:00 PM

Well, so far the good news is that the engine seems to run great so far. No codes, great at warm up and idles to normal (finally),although a loud noise is coming from the clutch housing.
When I had the engine pulled the lower tranny plate was bent. Got pushed against the flywheel so I bent it back. Seems though it got bent again. It can be easy to do (a second set of eyes would have been great). There is the bottom access hole but very difficult to wedge a long screwdriver in to bend it back. FYI, all clutch parts were replaced with all dealer-OEM.
The noise sounds like the hard steel on the PP is rubbing against the thin metal plate. If I just raise the engine and get access to remove the 2 bolts, I am not convinced there will be enough free space to pull that plate out. Clearance between that plate and the crossmember is very tight.


I hate to say it, but now I'm second guessing myself on the direction of the clutch disc. I have my old set and it can only be installed one way. The PP bolted up ok. If it was in backwards the female spline on higher side of the disc would press against the flywheel and ride above it by about 3/16". The bolts would probably be difficult to bolt down until enough pressure was applied to each of them that the spline would pop out enough to seat the disc against the PP. This didn't happen, it bolted up like it should have. So I think I'm ok, but not 100% sure. There are 2 separate rubber accesses, one at the fork, and the other just to one side of that (haven't accessed them yet).

The hydrolic cylinder somehow pulled in air, needs to be bled. The resevoir fluid is to the very top, well above max level and the clutch pedal has play as well as the fork from the rod of the cylinder not being fully extended. The clutch pedal goes to the floor when fully depressed and doesn't spring back. I can shift into all gears with the engine off (no clutch depressed), once the engine is on though with the clutch fully depressed, the shifter won't go into gear at all.
What is the best way to bleed the system of air?

#9 98sub2500leg

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 07:01 PM

What year and model is the car for starts?

Sounds to me like text book slave cylinder failure.

(Of course that depends on your MY)


98 OBW EJ25, manual trans.

#10 Durania

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 09:53 PM

Yeah, call the dealer and get you a slave cylinder for your car, then bleed the system once installed. I think its like a $60-$80 part. Its best to have someone with you when bleeding the slave cylinder.

#11 nipper

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 10:33 PM

Its not unusual for the Master and slave cylinder to go when or after the clutch is replaced. They do wear out, and sometimes traveling beyond thier normal stroke can tear the cups internally.

#12 98sub2500leg

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:30 AM

Got the slave CY coming.
By the way, what is the length of the full stroke of the slave cylinder rod and where is it measured from exactly?
Also, how can I test the master cylinder?

Edited by 98sub2500leg, 09 September 2009 - 11:16 AM.


#13 98sub2500leg

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:22 PM

Replaced the slave cylinder, bled the slave side, the rod has stroke (approx 3/8" throw). It pulls back and pushes forward ,but the clutch pedal doesn't return after being depressed. All clutch parts are OEM. I didn't replace the clips because I wasn't recommended to get them at the time. I just had a new pair sent to me.

The car goes into gear with the car off, but not when running. I'm second guessing whether the clutch disc is in backwards. :eek:
If I knew for sure it would be a relatively quick fix. How can I test the master cylinder? This may be 2 separate problems rolled into one. The noise is still coming from what looks like the lower clutch housing/flywheel plate is making contact with the PP, but it could be the disc is in backwards. I heard the PP-flywheel bolts would have been too short. I would have needed longer ones. I don't think that is true though. I tested the reverse disc scenario on the old clutch set I still have and the disc if installed backwards can be installed backwards. The splined hub on the disc would then contact the flywheel raising the disc above it by only 1/8", but the bolts would still easily go on. The 2 metallic locking tabs would not catch the PP until the bolts were worked down.
I don't remember having this scenario.

#14 Durania

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 06:59 AM

How many times did you pump the pedal, did you see fluid come out the bleeder screw?

Edited by Durania, 11 September 2009 - 07:12 AM.


#15 98sub2500leg

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:42 AM

Definitely bled and cycled all the bad oil out of the reservoir 3x too many pumps to count. The rod pushes in when depressed and out. The rusty metal particles are all out of the system.
Although I checked the fluid in the master cylinder and it seems to have the same crud in it (rusty fluid). Not sure how to cycle that out. The slave seems to be working ok now and the old was garbage.

When you fully depress the clutch pedal, the rod extends and presses against the clutch fork, then the clutch pedal still stays at the floor (doesn't retract). If you manually pull the pedal back the rod retracts and moves back into the slave cylinder. I am not sure how much it should retract. I thought I read the total throw should be approx. 3/8", which I would guestimate it is.
I believe there should be enough spring in the clutch fork to move the pedal back when the rod retracts and relieves pressure against the fork or is the rod just not retracting enough?
I think it must be a bad clutch install. Could also be the fork clips as Nipper & Davebugs suggested although they appeared to be ok during inspection. It could also be the disc may be in backwards or a combination of the two, but won't pull the motor until I am conclusive.

Edited by 98sub2500leg, 11 September 2009 - 07:42 AM.
left out a detail


#16 98sub2500leg

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:46 AM

Its not unusual for the Master and slave cylinder to go when or after the clutch is replaced. They do wear out, and sometimes traveling beyond thier normal stroke can tear the cups internally.


Is it easy to rebuild the master cylinder?

#17 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:13 PM

You should be getting a lot more than 3/8" of travel. It should be more like an inch. Assuming that we're talking about the end of the release arm.

Rebuilding the master shouldn't be difficult. Just be sure to hone the cylinder or else you'll be doing it again. I've learned that the hard way.

#18 98sub2500leg

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 03:31 PM

Finally got it together, car runs great now. There is still a coolant-exhaust smell but I believe it has to be the residual that spilled out from the 4x engine pulls.

The clutch disc was in backwards, the lower plate was bent and the edges were caught near the clutch housing near the studs. Got a new slave cylinder (that was also bad). Still need to bleed the master also due to same crud in the fluid.
A clutch disc can be installed backwards. The fork pins were ok as well as the fork. Still burping coolant but runs awesome, good strong clutch pedal.
I realized it must have been the disc was in backwards, I bucked up, pulled the motor again within 5 hours had it back together.
It went pretty quick, I made a new jig for pulling the motor.
After the 2nd pull, I realized the 2 points of pull I was using (chain) wasn't giving me any side adjustment or front to back. I used steel stut-chain-quick link-turnbuckle-quick link-chain-engine.
Using 4 turnbuckles is definitely the way to go. You can stand there and fine tune the pitch and side-side with each turnbuckle. Separation slides out quick, no pulling-no mucking with anything. Installation is a bit more difficult, but still pretty quick. It's all about getting the engine mount studs to just clear the cross member by not more than 1/4". Fine tune the angles, mating is a breeze.

Thanks to everyone who helped out. Hopefully I won't have any further problems with it.

#19 davebugs

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 03:42 PM

Glad you got it wrapped up - again.

Never would have guessed the clutch disc backwards or that it was possible.

#20 98sub2500leg

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 08:36 PM

Glad you got it wrapped up - again.

Never would have guessed the clutch disc backwards or that it was possible.


Yeah stupid thing to have done (more stupid to not have double checked it). I examined the old set and kept thinking back and came to the conclusion it had to have been the disc in backwards. There were past posts showing it wasn't possible, a local mechanic told me the bolts wouldn't have fit, but they did fit and really just as easily. I usually always inspect at least 3-10x before assy. depending how familiar I am with the particular job or part. Pretty sad ordeal it took as long as it did but at least it's finally done. 170miles, works great, and thanks for all the help Dave.




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