subsince77

That's where I was thinking it was too. My Haynes said it is behind the glove compartment. Maybe I read it wrong, or maybe it is wrong, not the first time. I'll check it again. Anyone know for sure where the ECM is?

Battery Connections are clean. Chassis connections, I did the engine connection from the negative post to the engine. I'm trying to picture the ones you are talking about. Are they small braided wire type connection from the engine to the chassis or something? Seems I've seen that, but maybe that was on my truck.

So the saga continues. I just returned from a couple of days away. We drove about 380 miles total. On the first day the car threw the #3 and #4 code within 1/2 hour on the highway. I just ignored it until we got to our destination, about 150 miles. Car ran perfectly, always does. If it wasn't for the light I would never know there was a problem. I did think of one soulution to this whole thing, a 3/4"X3/4" piece of electircal tape to cover the check engine light would eliminate this problem. The next day I removed and cleaned all the injector connections, and the coil pack connector. I rechecked all the plugs and plug wires. The car ran around town for an hour or so with no CEL. Then we went out to a trailhead to ride. That meant 15 minutes of 75 MPH, then a short section of washboard dirt road. As soon as we hit the washboard I got the CEL. It blinked two separate times on a 5 minute stretch of rough road, again #3, and #4. I cleared the codes, drove back out the same road, no CEL. Drove 20 Minutes of highway, no CEL. Last night drove 15 minutes of 75 MPH again and onto another dirt road to another trailhead, again CEL after about 1 minute of rough road. Now I'm thinking this isn't plugs or wires, but bad/loose grounds or something. This morning, I cleared the codes, drove to the same trailhead, no CEL. After our Mtn. Bike ride, and before heading home, I removed and cleaned both the main engine ground and the grounds for the coil pack. Neither was filthy, but both had the light grey corrosion you get on any connection over time. I scraped them and used contact cleaner on them. I was not in a place to mess with the ECM, so I didn't touch that yet. We started home and the CEL came on in about 1 minute, this time it was #4 only, no #3. We had to stop at a store about 15 minutes down the road, so at that point I cleared the code. Then we drove 150 miles home with no CEl at all. Not sure what to make of that last part, maybe we were just lucky. My plan is still to take the glove box out and clean all the connections on the ECM, and check any grounds. I don't know how the ECM is grounded, If anyone knows, that would be helpful. Maybe what I already did made a difference. But given the tendency for the CEl to light as soon as I leave the pavement, I am thinking either connection problems or a problem in the ECM itself. I know this can be improper valve setting or a compression issue, but I have a hard time thinking it is either of those on a CCR rebuild with 1300 miles on it. BTW, the engine runs great! Any thoughts?

You guys are amazing. I'm serious, there are loads of plows on trucks around here, and it's just considered a given that you will be constantly breaking your vehicle, repairing it again and again, until you finally junk it and put the plow on something else. I would think it would be worse back east with all that wet heavy snow. Skip that is one cool looking rig. And you have actually pushed snow with it? Does it articulate to both sides like / and \, and so both blades are forward like <? That's the hot setup around here now.

Funny, last fall when I changed coil packs, I had no trouble with the clips. But yesterday, when i just wanted to "cycle" all these connections to clean them a little. I couldn't get that one loose. I finally left it alone for fear of breaking it in the cold. I hope the new pack solves your problem.

Thanks. I am exaggerating just a bit, but those connectors get very brittle in the cold, as you may know. The only routine maintenance thing that I know of that I have not yet done on this car is the front O2 sensor. I've never gotten a code on it, and I doubt it's related to this issue, but I have a new one sitting on the kitchen table waiting for time and temperature to create an installation window.

Done it. Good stuff, but didn't solve this problem. I think that yesterday the #3 wire was not seated properly. It was really cold, the wires were very stiff, the sun was going down, and I think I didn't quite get it pressed in. I felt another little click when I pushed it again later. Today, I rechecked both ends of all the wires, made sure everything was well seated. I also gave the injector connections a couple of on and off cycles to clean them up a little. I drove around for a while, and drove up the valley for about 30 minutes (tough deal driving from Gunnison to Crested Butte on a beautiful blue day with the West Elks all covered in snow). No codes so far, so I'm at least back to where I was. We have a longer trip planned in a couple of days, so we'll see how that goes. At least this problem is only irritating and not debilitating. Pffff... Way over this boys head. I don't touch scary splice connections in wiring harnesses. I could mangle something beyond repair. But that is great info to know for real mechanics. Along those lines, I hate all those little plastic wiring coonnectors these days. No two seem to work the same way. I'm always trying to figure out the secret code for pushing, and or pulling, exactly the right combination of tiny fragile little snaps to get them apart. I only actually break something about 20% of the time though.

You may be seeing deer guards too. Lots of people have them around here. Mostly on trucks, but some cars also.

What did your poor legacy ever do to you? I hate to see people put plows on their 1 ton pickups unless they want to ruin them. Its a 100% this will destroy the vehicle thing. But I guess you know that. It will make for some good photos.

I already replaced both the coil and the knock sensor. I suppose I could have gotten a bad part, but there was never any change. I have never done anything with the igniter, ECU, or fuel injectors other than cleaning them. This last episode yesterday, happened immediately after the wire change. Prior to that, I can go many weeks with no codes until I take a road trip. So this last thing seems tied to the new wires. Too bad, I really like them. They fit, seem like quality wires, and come in a great, sort of neon blue color.

Hopefully someone will have a picture or diagram. But on my transmission, on the left side, maybe halfway back, there are two obvious switches with wires coming out of them. They are about 6 inches apart. The rear one is the neutral switch. The lead connects on top, and can be easily seen looking down through the engine compartment, right toward the back of the compartment. I had a friend there, so I handed him the lead, and he hooked it up after I screwed the new switch in. But you could do it by yourself pretty easy.

What edrach said.

Me too. I didn't get 5 blocks with the new wires before I had a check engine light. First #3, then later #4. I put them in fast (didn't remove the washer fluid tank or battery) and it was pretty cold, so I'll check tomorrow to see that everything is seated well. If I have to go back to OEM wires that are too short, I'm going to be frustrated. Maybe I'll try magnacore next and see if they actually make a wire that fits the car. I keep reading that they make a compatible wire for this car. CCR uses these NGKs all the time, so maybe I just didn't get them pressed in well.

I put in the NGK plug wires today. They definitely fit much better. Each one is exactly the right length for this engine. We'll see if it makes a difference. I will check the connections on the injectors, maybe pull them off and push them on a few times, or shoot a little contact cleaner in there. Our high today was 13, so I didn't want to be pulling on any brittle connectors today.

Well, I had to make the same trip again today to a neighboring town. Generally, its about 75 minutes each way all highway. But today, due to snowpacked and very icy conditions, it took over 90 minutes one way, and about 80 on the return trip. At the mid point of my trip, while driving around in town, my check engine light blinked a couple of times and came on. Just like the old days. At that point, I figured that this whole neutral switch thing didn't work after all. But when I got home and pulled the code, I discovered that this time there was only one misfire, #4, not the 3 and 4 that I always had previously. So now I'm stumped. I'm not sure if the new switch fixed one problem but I still have another, or if this is just more of the same. My next move is to install the NGK wires that I got. The #4 wire on my OEM set is way too short, and stretches tight to make it from the plug to the coil pack. The new NGK's are 4 different lengths like my original Subaru set that came on the car when it was new. I am pretty sure they will be long enough to fit properly. The only other thing I noticed was that the light came on while I was changing lanes, and right when I ran over a manhole cover. Not a real deep hole, but a bit of a bump. Don't know if it had anything to do with it or not.

That explains why it wasn't located under the clutch as I first thought. So, for those of us that are ignorant, maybe just me, what does this switch do? What does it tell the ECU? The dealer in Grand Junction had two of these in stock too. I had ordered one before I realized CCR had already sent me one. It must be a commonly needed part.

I noticed that my manual refers to it either as the Neutral Switch, or Neutral Start Switch. I like Neutral Switch - it's shorter. The reason I wrote Neutral Safety Switch, is because that is what I thought Rick said on the answering machine. Our machine is kind of garbled, so whatever. I want to reiterate a couple of things. First, I am not 100% positive that this fixed the problem - maybe 90%. My confidence has much more to do with the source of the information, than with yesterday's drive. I have thought I had this thing fixed before, only to have it reappear. After a few more longer drives, I will be totally convinced. Also, my car always threw both #3, and #4 together, never just one or the other, and never any other cylinder. What I gathered from Rick was that this switch specifically throws both of those codes when it does this. This isn't about other misfire codes to my knowledge. If that's not right, maybe Emily or Terry, or someone from CCR will chime in. And finally, I never had any problem with the switch as far as doing it's normal job. This car has not started exactly once in the years I've owned it, and that was because I left an interior light on all night. And, it would not start without pushing the clutch in. So I had no hint that something might be wrong with this component.

This will take a few paragraphs, so get comfortable. OK, I have posted a few times about the problems I have had with a persistent CEL that is always a mis-fire on both cylinders 3 and 4 at the same time. This has been going on for years, but in the last 18 months or so, it got a lot worse. It had gotten to the point that any time I drove the car at highway speed for more than 45 minutes to an hour, It would always throw this code. I never felt anything, or heard anything, the car ran perfectly except for throwing this code. I have read many posts by others with the same complaint. I have replaced the plugs and wires a few times, always with the correct OEM stuff. I finally replaced the coil pack last fall - still got the stinkin' code. I have done the Seafoam white smoke clean, replaced fuel filters, air filters - anything suggested - still got the stinkin' code. I finally decided it must either be an injector problem, or a valve hanging, but why would either of those always happen on two opposite cylinders at the exact same moment every time? Then came the HG problem and this code was the least of my worries. I couldn't run on the highway anyway. I secretly hoped that with the new engine the code would go away, but no, just shy of one hour up the hill from Denver, with a brand new engine (of course the plugs, wires, injectors etc. were all my old ones) on comes the light - #3 and #4 mis-fire:mad: I pulled over and called CCR. After a bit of deliberation, and discussion about the various causes of this problem, I elected to head on home instead of going back down into Denver to have them look at things. I was sure this was some gremlin in my equipment, not a problem with their rebuild. The next day when I got home from work, there was a message on my machine from Rick Johnson, the owner of CCR. He said something like, " I know you will never believe this, but if you will replace the neutral safety switch on that car, it will stop throwing that code." He said, "I know it doesn't sound right, but I'm telling you, on that car, with the manual transmission, that switch will cause that code.":eek: The switch is only $30, so I figured it was worth a try. It screws into the left side of the transaxle, about 6 inches behind the back up light switch. CCR offered to get me one, which was going above and beyond as far as I am concerned. So they did, and it arrived yesterday. I put it in last night, and today I drove for 2 1/2 hours on the highway (1 1/4 each way) with no CEL. I can't say this is absolutely conclusive, but the car hasn't done that in a long, long, time. In two weeks we'll be doing a 3 hour one way drive, so If I make it through that, I will consider it a sure fix. Again, this is for the 2.5L MT. Mine is a 97 OBW. Not sure if it applies to others. Sorry this was so long, but I found this kind of fascinating. Maybe it's not new info. But I hadn't read it before.

www.ngk.com This is not the NGK website, but they sell NGK plugs, wires and O2 sensors. The site is kind of a pain to use, but they were one of the few places that actually had the wires I wanted. I don’t think this is the cheapest O2 sensor out there, but it wasn’t worth paying shipping from another source when I was buying the wires anyway. I think it was right around $65. The OEM's that I had looked at were all at least that much.

I'll change my name to ginny-pig.

I ordered some NGK plug wires for the 97 OBW 2.5L to try to overcome the "Subaru wires for this car are too short" problem. While I was on the NGK site, I noticed that they make an "OE identical" front O2 sensor. So, I ordered one. The package is en-route, and I am second-guessing myself. I know that EOM is recommended for that front sensor, but this is NGK. Subaru and NGK are like peas and carrots aren't they? Seriously, any experiences with NGK O2 sensors? Am I just asking for trouble if I put it in? I'm replacing a part that may not even need to be replaced in the first place here. Mine has never thrown any codes, or caused real problems. I just noticed that I was getting a few less MPG's last fall, and was trying to figure out why. The one in the car is the original - 197K. Thanks

My experience, which is different from expertise, which others here can give, was that temperature didn't seem to make the overheating issue worse, but time on the highway did. Even in far sub-zero temperatures, mine would not overheat, even when I would drive it around the valley for multiple hours on errands, as long as I didn't go over about 55. As soon as I got out on the highway for somewhere between 15 minutes, and 40 minutes, it would suddenly overheat. I got away with driving daily for about two months while getting ready for an engine swap. But, I live near a small community, and can do all of that without ever getting over 50 mph. The only reason I'm chiming in, is that during the days, and weeks, that the car does not overheat, it runs just like normal. I found it EXTREMELY tempting to decide it was OK and head out of town with it. I am convinced that had I done so, I would have eventually fried my engine and the core would have been worthless. Don't do it, save what you can.

I read all your posts. Man, if it ends up that these shops are wanting 3 to 5k to swap something for you, do check out CCR. Some feel they are too expensive, but in my case, by the time I paid anyone else to do the work my engine needed, I was all but paying for a CCR rebuild. This way I got essentially a brand new engine installed by people that really know what they are doing. I got a u-haul car hauler trailer and pulled the car over to Denver. It cost $75, probably cheaper from the Springs up the road to Denver. Just a thought. They do 2.2's for less somewhat less than what I paid for my 2.5.

Yeah, we've had some snow here too.

Thanks to all. You are confirming my "don't worry about it too much" feeling. Skip, no problem, correct me anytime, I don't know much about this stuff and I want to learn. The way this stuff made a little pile on the frame member (sorry, probably the wrong term) I think it's grease not oil. Yes the axles were re-greased and rebooted by a very reputable, long-time, Subaru mechanic in Billings. I gave them a good yank this morning, and there is virtually no play, no sign of cracking yet, and definitely no noise when driving. I'll look more closely, but I think it is oozing from the end of the boot. My plan when I had the engine replaced was to wait until something really goes wrong with them, then get some MWE's to replace them. I'll stick to that. I've never had a problem with the front axles on a Subaru. My only other experience was with a 71 VW bug. The CV's went bad on that, and I drove it for years with lots of noise. I finally pulled them apart and re-greased them. They balls were all dark blue and scored. I put them back in with new grease and drove for several more years without any noise or problems. I was 20 then. I wouldn't abuse my Subaru like that now, but my gut is that even when these start to have problems, I'll have time to get them fixed. Thanks