subsince77

The rough road thing was a working theory for a little while there, but I have to say that the vast majority of the time the CEL has come on on smooth pavement. I think the couple of rough road instances were coincidences. I can't pin the CEl down to any one specific thing exactly - that's part of the difficulty. I do think that most of the time it is happening on deceleration, but not always from high speed. i have really tried to watch rpms, time running, temperature, etc. none of it is totally consistent, but the deceleration seems at this time to be the most consistent factor. I tend to think that most of the time it happens around 3000 to 320 rpm, but can't swear to it. Certainly, the trip last weekend, with the light consistently flashing when topping a pass, was one of the clearest indicators and what got me thinking about vacuum. As to feeling the misfire, NEVER EVER. Not a miss, not a nudge, not a whimper. Nothing to hear, nothing to feel. Even when the light is flashing for a time, nothing. That is why i drop this whole pursuit once in a while. If it weren't for the light I would never know there was a problem. I still think the ultimate solution might be a small piece of electrical tape that covers the cel.

Looks like it takes a better OBD2 scanner to read the freeze frame info from the ECM. A friend loaned me a vacuum tool today. I have to get some longer hose and tees before I can use it though.

I have one, that's how I'm reading the code and resetting, but its a pretty inexpensive one from Wally World. It says it has a freeze frame function, which I think does what you describe. But I haven't bee able to figure out how to see what is captured. I guess it's time to read the manual and see if will actually do this.

OK, new CEL after injector swap - still #'s 3 and 4:mad: So, let me just be sure I am thinking straight here before I move ahead. It seems that I am down to two possibilities. Either a vacuum problem likely caused by a valve (in which case I will have a warranty issue with CCR), or a problem somewhere in the fuel injector wiring harness. Is that right? If so, my next step as discussed earlier is getting a vacuum gauge and figuring out how to use it, while I am driving, to see if it indicates a loss of vacuum when the CEL is flashing. Unless someone tells me otherwise that will be my next move. If vacuum is eliminated, I don't really see any way to address the wiring harness (I've looked at the parts I can see and found no evidence of a break, or wear), and I'm not sure it would be worth it. Those wires run all over the place under the intake manifold. I don't feel capable of tearing that much engine apart to get at all the joints in that harness. Anybody ever replace the injector harness, or is that a bit overboard? Anything else I should do before the vacuum gauge?

Yeah, I took it as agreement. All is well, except my car.

I mostly just really liked writing that sentence. I didn't use the car today because we were going to a trailhead that required a bit more clearance. I did start it though, and it seems fine as far as I can tell, so on we go.

See, this is the kind of ignorance (my own) that keeps me from tackling new jobs on my engine. I know I don't know much, but I don't know WHAT I don't know, if you know what I mean. No the fuel was not under pressure, just trickling along. I didn't really think about where it was going, I was just trying to work quickly to get the injectors swapped and stop the flow. I was unaware of any of this hydro-lock stuff, but now it seems obvious and makes perfect sense. The engine barely moved, a partial turn, then a solid stop. I did give it a couple more quick tries, but it was clear that something was very wrong, so I just stopped everything until I had the plugs out. After replacing the plugs and changing the oil, it started a little hard, and ran poorly for just a minute, like a flooded engine. But then it ran fine, sounded good, idles smooth. After reading all this, I will see how it seems today, and really listen for anything unusual, but I think it's OK. I spent quite a bit of time under the hood listening and checking to see if anything was leaking, and I didn't notice any bad sounds.

I swaped the injectors this afternoon, but ran into some problems. Actually, the injector swap itself went just fine thanks to the help I received here and that end wrench article. However, even though I had loosened the gas cap, unplugged the fuel pump, and run the car dry, I still had gas flowing through the rails while I was moving the injectors around. The car was sitting level and it only had about 1/3 of a tank of gas in it. I'm not sure why I was still getting gas. Anyway, I finished the job and put everything back together, but when I went to start the car the engine just jammed immediately. It would not turn over at all. I sounded like I had shoved a bolt into a cylinder or something. I had never experienced anything like that, and had no idea what was going on. I called a mechanic buddy who immediately suggested that if any fuel had run through while I was doing the injectors the engine might be hydro-locked. I had never heard of it, but I pulled all the plugs and sure enough a fair amount of gas came out of #1. I turned it over just for a second to get any more gas out. Then put the plugs back in. I thought the oil smelled like gas so before I did anything else I changed the oil and filter. After that, the car started and ran fine. Now I just need to wait for the next CEL to see where the misfire is. Two questions: Is there anything else I need to do after this hydro-lock deal? I couldn't think of anything else that would have been affected. And, if I do have to change out another injector, what can I do to keep the gas from running into the engine? The only other thing I could think of is to park the car with the front uphill.

New igniter. Another CEL. Injector swap is next on the list. Maybe tomorrow night.

Thanks again. I will start working on all of this as I get time. #1 I got the new igniter today, so I will install that first - easy and no reason not to. #2 - I will swap the injectors and see if the misfire moves. #3 - I will buy a vacuum gauge and figure out a way to hook it up so I can drive with it. I'll need some free time to get that one done. I really can't tell you how much I appreciate the help. At least if I end up having to take it in someplace I will have eliminated a lot of possibilities by then.

Thanks. The injector job doesn't look bad at all, and the vacuum gauge is probably something I should buy and learn to use. Assuming I can find the right port to Tee into, I would still need to know what I am looking for. Just a reading that is low at a certain RPM or something? I assume I'm looking for a leak here. I'll see what my Haynes tells me when I get home, but if there are some simple instructions on what I would be looking for on the gauge, I would need that - told you, very low end mechanic.

Yeah - what he asked.

Thanks for the link. I'll read it before doing anything. And no, I haven't. I don't have any of that equipment. I'm very much a low end mechanic. I will need to take it in for that, and the place I generally take it may or may not know much about vacuum readings on Subarus. I'll ask, he'll tell me, he's a friend and not a bad wrench, just not a Subbie guy, Not True!! I am just starting with things I can do myself. I don't have a real good Subaru shop around here. When things get beyond me I either settle for what we have locally, or take it over to Denver which is a major trip.

Thanks, I think I am about down to straws all the way around. It is a new PCV valve, although I did put it in right before the engine change. No I have not switched injectors yet, and that is next on the list, just haven't had time. i did go through and check the wireing as far as I could - found not breaks or worn spots. I rewrapped #'s 3 and 4 and added extra insulation to those wires anyway. Am i correct in thinking that all I have to do to pull an injector is unplug it and remove the two screws? Do they just pull out at that point? Any sneaky springs or clips going to fly off and get lost?

I just noticed something interesting this weekend, although I don't know how relevant it is. We traveled from Gunnison to Durango for a triathlon carrying two bikes on top, and running the A/C. That route takes us over two smaller passes and three big ones. The CEL came on after just a short time on the highway. I checked it and turned it off a couple of times. Same old thing #4 and #3 misfire - no indication of anything wrong except the CEL. I noticed something that occurred over and over. We would cruise up a pass, that meant anywhere from 15 minutes, to 1/2 hour running along mostly in third at 3500 to 4000 rpm. At the top, as soon as I let off the gas to start down the other side, the CEL would begin to flash, and continue for as much as a minute, until I gave it some gas at a flat or slight uphill. Then it would just go back to a solid light. I've read that flashing CEL is supposed to indicate something major, but again, there is never any noise, missing, surging - nothin' but the light. Does this mean anything in-particular? I would assume there would be a big difference in vacuum between uphill and downhill, but I don't know much about this.

That would be great. Thanks. I'll Pm an address. BTW, the light came on again this morning after just a short drive, not hot at all, on a deceleration from about 50 mph. And, this is with the other ECU, so that's not it either. This one was only #4 however. I am going to go over those injector leads carefully as soon as I get some time.

I think I will get the igniter from davebugs and just try it. I took a look at the injector leads and didn't see anything obvious. I do think I will snip the zip tie that is holding the one on the right side to the rail, tape the whole thing up, then re-zip tie it a bit looser so it isn't crammed against the rail. It could be worn through under there - don't know yet. Thanks edrach for the offer to help, but the ignited dave has is the right one so I'll just get that one. I appreciate all the suggestions from everyone.

Yes, Just last spring. That's an intriguing theory. I will check that out. I didn't want to get way down into the injector leads, uncover a bunch of wire and try to find bad connections, but I will inspect those areas near the fuel rails and plug wires. I've gotten a few weeks without a code, but never anything like 7 months. You must have found the problem on your car anyway.

The igniter on a 97 OBW MT, and a 99OBW AT, should be the same right? Any reason to think otherwise?

Cut the blue wire, NO - the yellow one!! Sorry couldn't resist.

Let's see, $10 used, or $262 new, for a part I'm not at all sure I need? Hmmm...? OK! I'll find the number and get back to you - thanks!

OK, again, same issue before and after injectors were moved from old engine to new by CCR, so I imagine they are right, but how would I know that? Are they marked? It seems to me that some of the leads may have been marked with white tape, but I would have to look. I put in the new (used) ECM tonight. I think I'll see if someone has a used igniter too. Thanks

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. I did replace the coil with a brand new one last November. It didn't help. Are you saying to try another coil as well as an igniter? I get the find a used one part. Is the igniter that little back box back by the firewall, or did they hide it under the intake someplace?

Sorry for the lack of detail, I just didn't want to bore those that have been through this thing with me in the past. To answer a few of the questions: I replaced coil pack, plugs and wires last November. I got in a new CCR engine in January, so presumably that would eliminate any valve issues. In fact, only the fuel and ignition systems stay the same with the new engine, and it continued to throw the same code,s in the same way, with the same frequency from day one with the new engine. At that point I again replaced plugs and wires. I always use the right NGK plugs and OEM wires, except now I am using NGK wires. The NGK wires were installed on the recommendation of CCR because I don't seem to be able to get the right wires for this car from Subaru. It seems that in 97 the early model cars like mine had the coil with the female towers, then sometime that year they switched to male towers which are longer. For whatever reason, the wires you get from Subaru are too short and barely reach from plug to coil. You can't even put the wire into the little wire guides. You have to stretch it to reach. I always thought that was weird, but I have gotten several sets of wires from Subaru and all were the same length. So, CCR said they were too short too. They like the NGK wires, use them all the time, and I got those - they fit. I have also replaced the fuel filters, air filters, the neutral switch, done a couple of seafoam intake cleans (old engine), put BG 44K through, cleaned all the engine grounds, etc., etc., etc., all to no avail. So that is what I mean by I have done "everything". I have done all the typical stock answer things for this problem. It's not bad wires or bad plugs. I doubt the new valves are giving me the exact same problems as the old ones. It still could be an injector problem, I just thought it would be odd for two injectors to have a problem at the same time every time. I have not however, replaced the igniter or ECU. Questions about that: Would the misfire always happen on the same two cylinders if it was the igniter? That was why the coil was suspected last fall. Would there be any other noticeable symptoms if it was the igniter? Is an igniter something you should get from Subaru, or can I get it elsewhere? Is it worth throwing one at it? An igniter, being electrical, would make sense to me to be having more problems when it is hotter outside. Thoughts?

I have already posted a couple of long threads about this, so I won't give much detail. My 97 OBW MT has thrown 0303, 0304 codes off and on for a long time. I have done everything anyone has suggested over the years to no avail. Actually, there is one thing I have not done. I did buy a used ECU from someone on this site, and I never put it in. I think I will do that this week. I also have not replaced any injectors. It seems more like spark than fuel since it is always those two cylinders. I finally got a code reader, and every time it happens I just check the code and clear it. It basically never does it in everyday driving, but always does it on trips. You can never feel a miss, the car always runs well, and gets great milage. But, for the last month, seemingly since it got warm I am getting more misfire codes than usual. Now it has even happened on short trips near home a few times. Either something is getting worse, or it has something to do with the temperature. It is still always #3 and #4. Could the fact that it's summer affect this problem in any way?