WAWalker

The change in the torque procedure didn't really change anything. In the end you get the same result.

So rather than stopping the cylinder movement they have come up with a magical moveing gasket design. Sounds good to me. Would seem that this gasket is keeping up with the cylinder movement in the SOHC engines. Now they just need to refine it a little so that the fire ring and water jacket areas of the gaket can move independently of one another. As far as the DOHC engines go, I will have to see it to believe it. I'm sure it looked good in the drafting program, real life has a way of finding the weak points.

Don't you think the title is a little, harsh, for a list of maintenance items to "look out for".

All I have ever done for the last 10 years to bleed a Subaru cooling system is...............remove air bleed screw, fill through radiator till full, replace bleed screw and rad cap. Start engine, stop engine, top off radiator, Start engine, test drive, allow to cool, top off. Buy filling with bleed screw out there has NEVER been enough air left in cooling system to cause a problem, in my experiance. You have other problems. Knowing the 2.5L DOHC as I do, I would recommend you have the cooling system checked for the persence of hydrocarbons (by someone who knows Subarus), in order to confirm or rule out head gaskets. Get to the bottom of the problem before you destroy the engine. A bad t-stat will not cause a loss of heat. Unless it is stuck open, in which case you would have an over heating problem. But you should use an OEM t-stat all the same. Loss of heat is a coolant flow problem in the engine. In rare cases this could be caused by a bad water pump, or glazed timing belt slipping on water pump pully. It can be caused by low coolant level (which you say you have ruled out). It can be caused by air in cooling system (which you seemed to have ruled out). It can be caused by combustion gases in the cooling system.

I don't understand why so many people think that the EJ22 interference engines are such a disaster. Replace the timing belt every 100k and you have no worries. The EJ25's are interference, nobody is bashing them for that. Oh, maybe the head gasket issue over shadows the interference part.

Shouldn't be an issue on the DOHC engines. The "coolant conditioner" should not be added to these engines. That being said................Yes. On the 2.5L SOHC engines that have had the magic stop leak added, it goops up the radiator cap, and the bottom of the coolant recovery bottle. Having the valve in the radiator cap and the hose in the recovery bottle plugged will cause coolant to not be drawn back into the cooling system as the engine cools. The recovery bottle becomes over filled and radiator level gets low.

Yes, having a good radiator cap is part of good cooling system maintenance. Yes, they go "bad" fairly offten. Most bad ones still hold some pressure. I've seen you post this in another thread. Loss of coolant through the recovery bottle due to a bad cap is going to be minimal. The coolant in the system can only expand so much under normal conditions. In order for excess amounts of coolant to be pushed out there has to be somthing creating more pressure than the expanssion of the coolant itself, i.e. combustion gases, or of course boiling of the coolant=vapor. And yes, the coolant will boil at a lower temp if not under pressure. But most if not all 2.5L DOHC engines with failed head gaskets have obvious signs of hydro carbons in the cooling system.

The entire cooling system only holds like 6.3 quarts of antifreeze. Only what is in the engine and heater core has to warm up in order to have heat, maybe like a gallon of antifreeze.

I know you weren't picking on me. (this time:grin: ). I was just explaining my position on the subject. Some would have me tared and feather for my suggegstions of "Head gasket maintainence". Or if I told them that if they buy a VW 1.8L Turbo, to replace the timeing belt and water pump @ 60k miles, when the owners booklet cleary states 100 and some k for t-belt replacement.

I understand this. And It is a good point. I am aware of a lot of these other issues, not all, but a lot. Subarus are my bread and butter. I do my best to educate my customers about their cars and problems associated with. I also tell them that every car maker has its problems, so just because they are upset with their Subaru, going to another make isn't nessasarly going to give them a lifetime of trouble free driveing. They will just have to learn about a different car, and find a different mechanic.

The point of this thread was to try and help people to understand the nature of the beast. Yes, there are very expensive ways to "fix" the problem, but not realistic for the every day driver. I think the best that the every day driver can do is to understand and accept the "problem" and make their decisions as to how to minimize unwanted break downs and engine failures based on the nature of the problem. Rather than based on statements like "The updated gasket fixes the problem". Subaru never told anyone what the CAUSE of the problem is, or that the updated gasket was designed to FIX the problem. They just gave us the "updated gasket" and stoped making the engine. Just seems fishy to me. There has been enough dissapointment over this engine as it is. If it turns out the problem is engine design that a gasket can't fix, there is sure to be a lot more dissapointment. Make informed decisions. If you like the car your driving and want to keep it.............................. I say put the "updated" gaskets in, your engine, or a rebuilt, hope for the best, but don't rule out another failure. This is the approach I take, and everything that has come up in this thread so far tells me that it has been a very good decision.

I Dig. What the coolant temp senor on these engines does is it turns the fans on when the engine temp rises or the A/C is running (putting more heat in front of the radiator via the condensor). It does this. The only time the temp rises enough for this to happen is when the car is not moveing to get the nessasary air flow through the radiator. If you drive one you should have noticed this. Though setting inside the car the fans are hard to hear and if the radio or heater blower motor is running you won't hear the cooling fans. But they do come on when the engine is up to temp., car is sitting still(no air flowing through radiator), temperature does rise, cooling fans do come on. It works, I've seen it happen.

Improved cooling may change the effects that heat expanssion have on the the design. But on the other hand it may also have negative effects on the efficency of the engine. Engines need to opperate at a certain temp. in order to run clean and efficent. The oil needs to get hot enough for moisture to evaporate....................Things of this nature. Also not being an engineer, I don't know how black and white or gray this area is. Toyota had lots of years of recalled 3.0 head gaskets, and were running machanical fans. FWIW. I have another theroy on the block design. It appears that the block castings of all the EJ engines are basicly the same. They started with 1.8L then 2.2L, then 2.5L, then there is the 2.0L (which I have only had the heads off of two). It seems that every time they went up in displacement the material around the cylinder walls got thinner. Thus less support for the cylinders in an open deck design. Thus more cylinder vibaration. More cylinder movement with the expansion and contraction. I will be taking measuerments of this material, including cylinder sleeve, and posting what I find. I do know that there is a LOT more "meat" around the cylinders on an EJ20 than an EJ25, not just my eyes playing tricks on me.

Oh, I left that out. It is a '97.

ROTFLMAO:lol: True, True!

First thing. I don't believe there is a "problem" with 2.2L head gaskets. Second. This is more of an informational, comparission (2.2L vs. 2.5L) thread. The cause of this failure is PAINFULLY obvious. I mean it hurts to look at these heads. Someone has replaced the head gaskets once already. Poor wrokmanship is the cause of failure here. OK, a little back ground on this one. 95K miles on car. Water pump, t-stat, radiator, and head gaskets have all been replaced. In what order is unknow. Combustion leaking into cooling system. Very small leak at time of diagnoises. Current owner said car has only over heated on him once, after a long trip at highway speeds. Engine block. To compair to the 2.5L. Basicaly the same. I am going to make some measurements later to determine differences. Heads. Beware this is going to get ugly. Looks like the last person to have these off laid them on the side walk, kicked them down the block and back, then put them back on:eek: Not so bad? Ok, the nasty scratches in the surface of the head is what caused the leak this time around. What lead to the first replacement I geuss I'll never know. Anyway. Some pics to look at. More info on the 2.2L engine to come. Maybe some head gasket pictures to compaire also.

If you go buy the change in the thrust bearing location and added bell housing bolts (those were the two changes made), '97 DOHC had the "phase I" block, '98-'99 DOHC had the "phase II" block. See post #25 http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70457&page=3

I've learned that the hard way. You never know if those pins will stay in the trans or the engine. When replacing either with a used part, you have to check.

You say you are swapping the engine. Mean replacing the old one with a different one? Make sure you don't have an extra dowel pin in the engine or trans.

No theres not really anything wrong with just doing one. Will be more money in the long run if you have to do the other side later. Both sides do leak. The worst of it is the drivers side rear. Some leak really bad, some just seep. Some seem to leak oil. Well have been told it looks like oil but tasts like antifreeze. Probably a little of both. IMO if it is coming from the head gasket, the head gasket needs to be replaced, I don't care to tast it. Mostly when the passeger head starts to leak it looks more like oil than antifreeze and is worse toward the front. The heads are intercangeable, so this coresponds somewhat with the drivers side leak. Still speculating on this. Have been trying to help as many people as possible get these taken care of under warranty, so haven't tore into a lot of them. I'm sure I will soon enough. Will be taking one apart that I have sitting in the shop, to get pictures and start a SOHC head gasket thread.

LOL. I've heard of that GM stuff. Back when they started building the Northstar engines, had problems with porosity of the aluminum blocks or something. I remember an old guy saying he had to give his car pills. See It's not just Subaru who has problems. Every car maker has bones in their closet.

I believe it is a Dealer only item. But I have never looked for it elesware. As for what the dealership told you. I just replaced one this morning. So I went and pulled the old plastic one out of the trash, grabbed a new one of the shelf and measured. No one had ever tried to sell me new bolts, so I had never questioned it and the bolts had never seemed to be short, so I measured.

Sorry, I don't understand the question. "Where do you get that?" The part? From Northeast Imported Parts & Accessories, Inc. OE part, PN 11831AA150 "The dealer?" The part? No. The information? Experiance. Thickness of the plastic vs. the alloy. Same Same. Lengeth of threads on back side of the plate with bolt inserted in the holes, plastic vs. alloy. Same Same.

Replace the plastic oil seperator plate with the new alloy one, it's a $17 part. Resealed plastic oil seperator plates will leak again. Different rates of expansion and contraction between the plastic plate and alloy engine block breaks the seal.

If the first owner had the campaign performed there will be a record of it in SOA's computer system. Go to the dealer give them the last 8 numbers of the VIN, they can look it up to see if it was done.