dasaan Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) 2001 Outback 2.5L Auto 65,000mi The car has been having an issue for about two months with a strong wheel shake when braking downhill, especially when turning. Recently, I have begun to notice a catch in the brakes when slowing down. I took it to Monro, and they said that it has a bad caliper and that the rotors were warped because of it. Quoted to flush brake fluid, replace 4 pads, 4 rotors, and 2 calipers ~$950 (after discounts). I decided to look into it myself as I tend to work on my own cars, but I have never done brakes before. I have been reading on this forum and others about faulty calipers, "warped" rotor issues, and diagnosing and changing these parts, but I am trying to work out the "grand method" of correcting this problem short of paying Monro or buying all new parts. It seems as though this could be caused by uneven deposits on the rotor. Is there a way to clean these short of machining? (I would probably just put on new ones if not) If it is a caliper problem, then it seems that fixing my rotors would still result in brake issues sooner than later. What is the best way to test for a caliper problem? I assume if it is bad, then rebuilding would be the cheapest way to fix, but under what instances would rebuilding be inadequate? I suppose what I am looking for (and what would be a great reference for this forum) is: Given that there is a shake in the steering wheel when braking during a turn and a catch in the brakes at low speeds, what would be the progression of steps necessary to correct with minimal expenditure on unnecessary parts? Edited February 3, 2010 by dasaan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Heh, I'm in syracuse NY also (when at work, anyway). Annnnnyway, if the 'catch' seems to be about once-per-wheel-rotation when slowing down, and transitions from 'shake' to 'catch' as you slow, it's probably pad material deposition. Your description sounds just like my experience with pad deposition on the rotor. You might be able to sand the affected area or turn the rotor, but the hardened material actually extends below the rotor surface, and it will recur. If you're into taking it apart a bit to diagnose, you could pull the calipers and check that the pistons and sliders function correctly, and remove the rotors and look for what looks like a shadow of the pad. On mine it looked like you made a stencil outline of the pad and dusted the rotor (using the stencil) with charcoal. This particular problem is caused by getting the brakes hot and then stopping with the hot rotor against the pads, probably with the brakes on. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 DO NOT pay that kind of money! Calipers are likely not the problem. At worst you would need new rotors and that is something anybody with a toolbox can do. Rotors are $30 each at Autozone for your car. You will probably need spindle nuts (holds the rotor on) which Autozone, Advance and even the dealer did not have for my Impreza so I got them shipped from Rock Auto. You will have to get the torque spec. on them. They get crimped so they are single use unlike those that used cotter pins. Pads are $24 and up. I have had had similar symptoms on a 68 Lincoln and my 98 Civic. Rotor replacement solved the problem each time. On the Lincoln the large rotors allowed us to see that 2 fins between the rotor faces had corroded and that the caliper was compressing the faces together at that spot and then the rotor would force the caliper to open slightly as the good area rotated into the caliper. I do not know if that was the problem with the Civic or if it was warpage but replacement solved both issues. I find it strange that they wanted to sell you rear rotors for a front end issue but not rear calipers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94Loyale Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) $950 is rape for that amount of work,lol. Some places just make me laugh. Sounds like warped rotors to me. However they are not held on by any kind of nut. The only thing that holds them on is the brake caliper holder (two 17mm's). I wouldn't figure on calipers unless they are leaking, I haven't had to replace one for any other reasons. If you take it all apart, make sure your caliper sliders are free, and the clean the dirt off of the thin metal pieces your brake pads slide on. Edited February 4, 2010 by 94Loyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 DO NOT pay that kind of money! Calipers are likely not the problem. At worst you would need new rotors and that is something anybody with a toolbox can do. Rotors are $30 each at Autozone for your car. You will probably need spindle nuts (holds the rotor on) which Autozone, Advance and even the dealer did not have for my Impreza so I got them shipped from Rock Auto. You will have to get the torque spec. on them. They get crimped so they are single use unlike those that used cotter pins. Pads are $24 and up.I have had had similar symptoms on a 68 Lincoln and my 98 Civic. Rotor replacement solved the problem each time. On the Lincoln the large rotors allowed us to see that 2 fins between the rotor faces had corroded and that the caliper was compressing the faces together at that spot and then the rotor would force the caliper to open slightly as the good area rotated into the caliper. I do not know if that was the problem with the Civic or if it was warpage but replacement solved both issues. I find it strange that they wanted to sell you rear rotors for a front end issue but not rear calipers. No need to remove the spindle nut on the legacy/outback. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Brian Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 No need to remove the spindle nut on the legacy/outback. Dave I am happy to see that you focused on the spindle nut and not the OP's problem. A-Zone references possible spindle nut issue so I put it in my post so the OP would have an idea of what he faces since he never has done brake work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 I am happy to see that you focused on the spindle nut and not the OP's problem. A-Zone references possible spindle nut issue so I put it in my post so the OP would have an idea of what he faces since he never has done brake work! Ummm, what? I was the first responder on this thread, am happy to see you read the entire thread before replying. The spindle nut aspect is important because it's a fairly big scope change to include the spindle nut, given how difficult it can be to remove, and especially given how critical it is to the wheel bearing to torque it properly. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94Loyale Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Haha, play nice? To the OP, too bad you're so far away or I'd give you a hand! It just sounds like rotors to me. All you'll need to do this yourself is a 14mm for the caliper bolt, and a 17mm for the caliper holder, and a 19mm for the lugs. It's not a difficult job at all. Let us know if you run into any problems, or anything you have a question on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasaan Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 Thanks for the replies. It seems as though everyone thinks that my rotors are at fault. I am planning to take the wheels off this weekend and give it a look over. I will post what I find. I did notice that nobody answered my original questions about cleaning off uneven deposits, diagnosing caliper problems, etc. I am still curious about these issues, if anyone would like to comment on my original post material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I did notice that nobody answered my original questions about cleaning off uneven deposits, diagnosing caliper problems, etc. I am still curious about these issues, if anyone would like to comment on my original post material. I don't think accumulation of "uneven deposits," is a real life situation. The rubbing (wiping action) of the brake pads on the rotor constantly removes any potential deposit that may even think about accumulating on the rotor. When you have a look see, you prolly can't visually see any warp-age in the rotors, but from the problem you described, it is most likely there. If you, remove the pads, check to see that the slides are nice and smooth and crud free, so there is no pad binding going on. However, performing this much labor, I would recommend you replace both front rotors and pads, and see if this work fixes the problem. Most braking action is from the front brakes, so doing the fronts is the best starting point towards a fix. Cost for new rotors and pads is not much more than $100, maybe $250 if you buy the parts from a dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) it does sound like warped rotors. they are easy, but the bigger question is why? could be your caliper slide pins? poor movement of the caliper may cause over heating causing warping. or maybe just your driving style? or .... remove the wheel, remove the caliper (leave the brake line attached), remove the caliper bracket. you will want to re-grease the slide pins. and check the piston for crud and stuff. it is hard to imagine that you need calipers at 65k. replace the rotors (some low end rotors have been known to be bad, warped, right out of the box) replace the pads. there is a certain satisfaction in wire brushing everything and putting it back together. i have done pads without it but it's not as much fun. bolt it back up. 2 bolts for the bracket, one or two for the caliper, 5 for the wheel. test drive. what did it miss? edit: check the fluid level. Edited February 5, 2010 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Thanks for the replies. It seems as though everyone thinks that my rotors are at fault. I am planning to take the wheels off this weekend and give it a look over. I will post what I find. I did notice that nobody answered my original questions about cleaning off uneven deposits, diagnosing caliper problems, etc. I am still curious about these issues, if anyone would like to comment on my original post material. ? "Annnnnyway, if the 'catch' seems to be about once-per-wheel-rotation when slowing down, and transitions from 'shake' to 'catch' as you slow, it's probably pad material deposition. Your description sounds just like my experience with pad deposition on the rotor. You might be able to sand the affected area or turn the rotor, but the hardened material actually extends below the rotor surface, and it will recur. If you're into taking it apart a bit to diagnose, you could pull the calipers and check that the pistons and sliders function correctly, and remove the rotors and look for what looks like a shadow of the pad. On mine it looked like you made a stencil outline of the pad and dusted the rotor (using the stencil) with charcoal. This particular problem is caused by getting the brakes hot and then stopping with the hot rotor against the pads, probably with the brakes on." Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I don't think accumulation of "uneven deposits," is a real life situation. The rubbing (wiping action) of the brake pads on the rotor constantly removes any potential deposit that may even think about accumulating on the rotor. It probably takes 'cheap' pads to make it happen, but it has happened to me- one stop at a long light after hard braking and some pad material transfers to the rotor. This forms a hot spot that then chemically changes the rotor. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 i would suspect the wheel bearing. this is just my hunch, but my experiences with rotor noises, especially in tune wioth rotation, was wheel bearing related(on older models) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSluder Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Also consider a bent axle, that will give uneven braking, before removing the wheel jack the car up and determine from a stationary object if the rim wobbles in relation to it. use something like a jackstand as you can get that close to the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 (edited) 2001 Outback 2.5L Auto 65,000mi The car has been having an issue for about two months with a strong wheel shake when braking downhill, especially when turning. Recently, I have begun to notice a catch in the brakes when slowing down. I took it to Monro, and they said that it has a bad caliper and that the rotors were warped because of it. Quoted to flush brake fluid, replace 4 pads, 4 rotors, and 2 calipers ~$950 (after discounts). I decided to look into it myself as I tend to work on my own cars, but I have never done brakes before. I have been reading on this forum and others about faulty calipers, "warped" rotor issues, and diagnosing and changing these parts, but I am trying to work out the "grand method" of correcting this problem short of paying Monro or buying all new parts. It seems as though this could be caused by uneven deposits on the rotor. Is there a way to clean these short of machining? (I would probably just put on new ones if not) If it is a caliper problem, then it seems that fixing my rotors would still result in brake issues sooner than later. What is the best way to test for a caliper problem? I assume if it is bad, then rebuilding would be the cheapest way to fix, but under what instances would rebuilding be inadequate? I suppose what I am looking for (and what would be a great reference for this forum) is: Given that there is a shake in the steering wheel when braking during a turn and a catch in the brakes at low speeds, what would be the progression of steps necessary to correct with minimal expenditure on unnecessary parts? Braking on downhill corners?Where did you learn to drive? Why would you stop short of machining or replacement? Machining costs me the princley sum of $12! Calipers probably sticky.Check by checking for free rotation of the wheel. 1. Check for sticky caliper(s) 2. Machine rotors 3. Replace/rebuild calipers as ness.(new pads suggested) Frankly,if you need to ask these questions,you probably should not be working on brakes. $950 seems pretty steep.Try some where else. Edited February 5, 2010 by naru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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