NorthWet Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 GD is pretty local to you, and probably has a really good handle on where to get tools for this job. McMasters is often mentioned, but I have no clue how broad of stuff they carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I think he's in Canada - Vancouver British Columbia I think..... so probably closer to you. LOL. I have a left-hand set from Harbor-Freight - they are fine for $15 or so. Not the best quality but HSS and they are easily sharpened on a wheel or a belt sander... they have worked for me anyway . McMasters will certainly sell them - generally high quality stuff from them. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 I think he's in Canada - Vancouver British Columbia I think..... so probably closer to you. LOL... I swear that I checked his locale twice before I stuck my foot in my mouth. (sigh) I was close... only the length of Washington between the 2 Vancouvers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 I found a place that carries the bits. Acklands Granger. I picked up one HSS bit for about $8 and I have to go to their warehouse (two blocks from my work) to pickup the others, which should be a bit cheaper. I removed the tranny mounts and the engine mounts last night and tried Grossgary's trick of jacking the engine and tranny up together for clearance but the engine mounts woudn't disengage from the crossmember...I just undid the two bolts for the engine mounts that are under the car, not sure if I had to take more of the mount assemblies off or what, but they didn't budge, I could see the tranny mounts come up though when I appplied the jack. If I can't get it up high enough (there's a pun there I think) then I will pull the engine out for sure. Unfortunately my downloaded copy of the FSM (from the finleyweb/aviation site) is missing the sections on engine/transmission mounting system and the Haynes isn't very clear. SO my next question is...with the engine mounts off I would have four big bolts on the bellhousing, and shouldn't there be some more smaller bolts through the timing hole? I couldn't find any bolts in there to release so I stopped there. It's a standard tranny... Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 must be missing something, the engine definitely will raise up - it has to in order to come out so you'll have to figure out what's wrong regardless of if you try to just lift it or actually remove it entirely. it's standard procedure for replacing the oil pump as the pan will not come off without jacking the engine up due to the baffles in the pump and sump passing through it - the pan has very little room to move, so the engine has to be jacked up off the crossmember. the engine mounts pass through the cross member and there's one 14mm bolt holding each one in place - sounds like you removed both of those? we must be forgetting something.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 There's nothing but the 2 top bolts and the bottom nuts on the bell-housing. On an MT car there are no bolts inside the bell-housing - that's for automatic's only (flex-plate). GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 must be missing something, the engine definitely will raise up - it has to in order to come out so you'll have to figure out what's wrong regardless of if you try to just lift it or actually remove it entirely. it's standard procedure for replacing the oil pump as the pan will not come off without jacking the engine up due to the baffles in the pump and sump passing through it - the pan has very little room to move, so the engine has to be jacked up off the crossmember. the engine mounts pass through the cross member and there's one 14mm bolt holding each one in place - sounds like you removed both of those? we must be forgetting something.... Yup, those 14mm nuts are off, they came off nicely and the bolt threads are in good shape. I see a new washer on the drivers side so someone must have replaced it. I only unscrewed the bottom nuts off - the ones that you access from underneath the car, so do I have to undo the top pieces/nuts of the mounts as well? It doesn't seem like it. I don't know how to quote GD's last reponse in tandem with Grossgarys as well but that's awesome news!! - four external bolts and the bell housing should pry apart... I will give er a shot. I am excited to get the engine out because I can do a way better job on it that way anyway. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 21, 2010 Share Posted December 21, 2010 no need to remove any other bolts but those two 14mm's you already removed for the lower motor mounts. if you're removing the engine you can also drop it off at a machine shop and they'll remove the bolt for you. they'll have no problems getting it out, just call around and find one willing to take the entire engine. not sure what you're machine shop rates are but around here it would be no materials and $30-$80 for an hour labor depending on the area of the country you live in. that would save you the hassle, time, and tool purchases. sounds like you're totally down with pulling the motor, that will definitely make the job simpler. i'd replace simple things like pilot bearing and throw out bearing while it's apart unless they're in near perfect condition. oil pan gasket would be really easy with engine out too as discussed in a previous reply, it's very tricky to do in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 21, 2010 Author Share Posted December 21, 2010 Yeah I have thought about the machine shop thing. It might be worth it so I don't mess it up. I was planning on getting it under the drill press so I had a perfect 90° angle on it, then mark the drill bit so I dont go too deep but if a machine shop can do it for cheap...then why not. I will call around and check their rates. I am planning on giving it another pass tonight. Maybe the crossmember was so dirty that I couldn't see the mount moving up. The oil pan gasket AND oil pump seal are both gong to be done because it just makes sense...its all right there with the engine out. Thanks for all of your support fellas. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 Aw man. I didn't want to ask but I have seperated the bell housing by about half an inch and it won't go any further because the motor mount studs are sitting in the crossmember, preventing any further horizontal movement. I have a couple questions before I start reefing on it and possibly break something... Are the two 14mm bottom bolts in the bell housing attached to the block or something? I could not see where they might slide out if they are supposed to, it seems like they are casted into the block perhaps...? Am I supposed to lift AND pull at the same time to get this thing out? I can't lift it without the bottom bell housing studs getting in the way and I can't slide it forward without the mount studs getting in the way. The creative approach would seem to be to place a jack on the tranny and then when the motor mount studs clear the cross member, slide it forward. Am I missing something here? Aside from knowledge and experience that is... Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudduck Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 Get the motor mounts up and out of the crossmember first, then pull the motor forward. I usually put a jask under the tranny to got it up about man inch or so, then lift the motor up with the hoist until the mounts are clear of the crossmember, then seperate it from the bellhousing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 The bottom engine-to-tranny studs are screwed into the engine's rear housing (It is sort of half of a traditional bellhousing, bolted to the engine, while the "other half" is part of the tranny.) Pull the tranny and engine back together with bolts and studs, and work on lifting the engine off of the crossmember to free the motor-mount studs. These mount studs are splayed outwards slightly (to match the angle of the crossmember) and sometimes are slightly resistant to coming out. (This is not noticeable with an engine hoist, but might be by hand or floor jack.) The engine mounting system is very simplistic, except for the pitch-stopper link at the top of the bellhousing to the bottom of the spare-tire tray... you did remove this, right? 2 motor mount bolts under the crossmember, the 2 bolts and 2 nuts that you found holding the engine to the tranny, and the pitch stopper. If you pull the engine, remember to disconnect the O2 sensor wire and free it from its clips, drop the exhaust system, disconnect the electrical harness plugs, unbolt the ground wire near the water pump inlet pipe, disconnect fuel lines, disconnect power steering hoses at the pump (my preferred way) and remove the pipe hold-downs on the non-disty head, heater and radiator hoses... And, oh, do you have A/C? If so, just unbolt the compressor from the engine (by itself or with its mount bracket), and carefully lay it over into the battery box. No need to disconnect any A/C hoses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 Overlooking the obvious(if this may be the case) that the 3 bolts in the middle of the head are SHORTER than the rest of them, and if you have one of the longer bolts in the middle, it will bottom out in the threads before it seats against the head and torques up. Pay attention to the lengths of the bolts while installing! Set the 3 shorter bolts aside together to keep track during the install/torque sequence. I have made this mistake and caught myself when the bolt was tight, but not all the way seated. good luck you can take the motor out of the car easily enough with the heads off. the short block weighs less than 100 lbs, and you could throw it across the room like a medicine ball. place a jack under the trans to raise the motor up just out of the crossmember mounting holes. have a buddy help you because i'ts easier than leaning over your center of gravity. you can assemble the rest of the engine on a bench, and then rent a crane to install it. Since you will have the motor out, it doesn't make sense to install the short block back in the car, and then do the heads/cam towers as it can be frustrating with the followers falling out as you try to install the cam tower before the ultra grey RTV sets up, especially for the distributor side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 Yep, the pitch stopper was the first thing to pop off. Ah ha - so those studs ARE attached!! Ok, this makes sense now. Thanks for the 02 sensor heads up. I would have yanked on it until I saw the wire getting tight. The heads are already off, the AC and the intake are bungee'd to the side nicely, PS pump lines are off at the pump, exhaust is dropped and I haven't spotted anything else that would get in the way. It was just a matter of knowing the studs are connected and which way to lift first and then pull. This should be straightforward now I think. By the way, I found a machine shop that will do the bolt exctraction for 20 bucks called Heads Unlimited! Saves me the accidental off center drill maneuver... Thanks again guys. I will update as I progress... Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 Overlooking the obvious(if this may be the case) that the 3 bolts in the middle of the head are SHORTER than the rest of them, and if you have one of the longer bolts in the middle, it will bottom out in the threads before it seats against the head and torques up. Pay attention to the lengths of the bolts while installing! Set the 3 shorter bolts aside together to keep track during the install/torque sequence. I have made this mistake and caught myself when the bolt was tight, but not all the way seated. good luck you can take the motor out of the car easily enough with the heads off. the short block weighs less than 100 lbs, and you could throw it across the room like a medicine ball. place a jack under the trans to raise the motor up just out of the crossmember mounting holes. have a buddy help you because i'ts easier than leaning over your center of gravity. you can assemble the rest of the engine on a bench, and then rent a crane to install it. Since you will have the motor out, it doesn't make sense to install the short block back in the car, and then do the heads/cam towers as it can be frustrating with the followers falling out as you try to install the cam tower before the ultra grey RTV sets up, especially for the distributor side. Ah, just saw your post Mr Fox... Yes the head bolts are different sizes. The way I find to line them up is to keep them in the heads and if you slide them through and they are all in the right spots, the thread sides (bloack mating side) will be the same length. I found a crane and a stand for about 100 bucks for both so I am going to get them since its not too expensive, could maybe use them again later too. Totally...going to assemble the whole thing on the bench and then crane it back in. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 ...Thanks for the 02 sensor heads up. I would have yanked on it until I saw the wire getting tight... Gee, I am glad that I have never done THAT before!!! ...By the way, I found a machine shop that will do the bolt exctraction for 20 bucks called Heads Unlimited! Saves me the accidental off center drill maneuver... That is a deal at twice the price!!! I wonder if this is the same Heads Unlimited that I have kind of been looking for for the last few years. Are they in B.C.? Washington State? The one that I had heard about was in Auburn, Washington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 23, 2010 Author Share Posted December 23, 2010 Gee, I am glad that I have never done THAT before!!! That is a deal at twice the price!!! I wonder if this is the same Heads Unlimited that I have kind of been looking for for the last few years. Are they in B.C.? Washington State? The one that I had heard about was in Auburn, Washington. Yessiree. Heads Unlimited that I am referring to is located in Surrey BC, which is only about a 15-20 minute 'spirited' drive away from my place in Vancouver. Still looking for a good crane and a stand to buy. I have a few sources to follow up on, the best craigslist deal I found - guy won't sell his until Jan 1st. I might just wait for that set since they are brand new (used once) with universal bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 i figured you'd be able to find a place to do the extraction for you, much simpler and probably your best option on a head bolt. you might even be able to ask if you can tow the entire vehicle there, if they have a bay or something to pull it in they might do it right in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted December 23, 2010 Author Share Posted December 23, 2010 Yeah, I was worried that it was going to be expensive at the machine shop but it's not, 20 bucks is totally worth the peace of mind. The engine removal/overhaul is something that I want to be able to do myself in my garage, kind of a challenge but I am totally up for it. I can't wait to see the block up and out...but it will have to wait until next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 I think that there are several USMB members in the Vancouver BC area. (Certainly several south of the border in Bellingham.) You might be able to borrow/rent a crane from a member, and maybe get some friendly help and kibbutzing, if you ask for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 I think that there are several USMB members in the Vancouver BC area. (Certainly several south of the border in Bellingham.) You might be able to borrow/rent a crane from a member, and maybe get some friendly help and kibbutzing, if you ask for it.that's a good call - know anyone who has one? i'd let you borrow mine, i've offered it up for board members before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Update - Stroke of Bad luck... Dec 30th, I tore ligaments in my left knee and have been somewhat confined to crutches and drugs. To make matters worse...Jan 1st at 6:30am I was on my way to pick up a crane that I was about to borrow from my friend when I broke a timing belt in my GL on the highway and waited 3 hours in the cold for a tow. So last weeekend I pulled the Loyale out of the garage, put new belts on the GL and she's running great. Woot. I got the crane delivered and now I have to shove the Loyale (the one that is getting the bolt extracted) back in the garage. FURTHERMORE, I accidentally left the Loyale in 4wd so turning it is giving me some torque bind when navigating turns, making it almost impossible to push. One question for y'all... Since the heads are off, is there any way to EASILY disengage the 4wd from the rear diff without starting the car or taking off the drive shaft? I connected the battery, pushed the button but it just won't come out of 4wd. Oh yeah...happy new year... Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 You may have to jack up one end of the car and manually actuate the vacuum servo on the side of the tranny. Without vacuum it will not work and that requires the engine running or for you to apply vacuum to the accumulator tank...... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Thats what I thought. I think I am going to have to pry a couple of friends off the couch to help shove it back in. If I make lots of little turns the torque bind is workable. Thanks GD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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