Petersubaru Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Looking for ideas...I wrote about my leaking head etc sometime ago and turned my situation into an on going experiment as to why??..the driver side has had 3 HGs lately with no success... at first I thought it was corrossion where the HG sealing ring sits..but not so and the problem is on the cylinder closest to the firewall....I still have not come up with any answers nor can the two machine shops ...the heads have been milled and are perfectly flat..they have been pressure tested on 2 different occassions by diff shops and don't leak even though there are some cracks that are starting to appear slightly under and between the valves..the block has been inspected with a machinist straight edge and found that .002 will not slide anywhere under... next the block was tested to see if it was wavy (can develope when scrubbing with a 3m green pad in one place for two long)..this test consists of useing a silder with a dial indicator that goes along the path of where the slider was placed..with the center of the block being dead perfect ..there was no more then .001 between the high and low points..in other words a wavyness of .0005 as average...so the block is also good and flat..inside of the cylinders where magnifluxed and obviously no cracks there... perhaps the DIY (me) can't put a head on properly, ..but I have done several already with success...could the 45-50psi be to "low" when doing the pressure test..there is a shop 50miles away that uses 130psi for 350 cu/in chevys...would a crack in the head open up when torqueing the head bolts and then seem OK when off the engine???..any theories.. Edited September 10, 2011 by Petersubaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 are you not using the only advice we can gice, OEM Subaru Head gaskets>\\I bet you are using the off the shelf of a discount store, which you can search, are junk junk junk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 are you not using the only advice we can gice, OEM Subaru Head gaskets>\\I bet you are using the off the shelf of a discount store, which you can search, are junk junk junk ..I don't believe in going the cheap route..2 sets felpro permatorque (blue)..1 set cortec (white)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The FNG Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 are you not using the only advice we can gice, OEM Subaru Head gaskets Sorry but I've gotta do this......FelPro and Cortex are not Subaru OEM Now that's out of the way, what are you torquing to and how are you doing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 Sorry but I've gotta do this......FelPro and Cortex are not Subaru OEM Now that's out of the way, what are you torquing to and how are you doing it? No problem..I am not into re-torqueing and have done several other cars with the same brand of HG's..torqueing is done according to the book plus 5lbs, useing a very expensive new "snap-on" torque wrench... the same procedure used 9yrs ago with the the same style of fel-pro was done last on this car by me useing the same heads...a side note..OEM of 2011 HG's for '86 loyale are not the same HG that originally came with the vehicle of the mid eighties... the engine leaks immediately apon the 1st start from the same cylinder hole..verified by a leak-down test.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I've done 6 HG jobs on ea82's, all of which I have torqued to 55ft/lb. NONE of which have failed using the blue stripe Fel-Pro Permatorque gaskets...torque once...walk away. Not sure if I understand your issue and description completely but have you: - Checked intake gaskets and the intake? I swear that the OEM gaskets are better than aftermarket because the OEM's have a layer of metal in them, aftermarket are made of rubber from what I have seen. - How are the rings? Any blowby happenning? Compression numbers? I ended up having a serious ring issue once that APPEARED as a head gasket issue at first. It drove me nuts until I saw the wet vs. dry compression numbers were shockingly different. - Did the shop check your valves while they tested the head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I am with Deener on this one. Probably nothing wrong with the block/head/gasket. More likely you are concentrating on the wrong area. Check the intake gaskets and even the intake manifold. Could have a crack or small hole in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 I've done 6 HG jobs on ea82's, all of which I have torqued to 55ft/lb. NONE of which have failed using the blue stripe Fel-Pro Permatorque gaskets...torque once...walk away. Not sure if I understand your issue and description completely but have you: - Checked intake gaskets and the intake? I swear that the OEM gaskets are better than aftermarket because the OEM's have a layer of metal in them, aftermarket are made of rubber from what I have seen. - How are the rings? Any blowby happenning? Compression numbers? I ended up having a serious ring issue once that APPEARED as a head gasket issue at first. It drove me nuts until I saw the wet vs. dry compression numbers were shockingly different. - Did the shop check your valves while they tested the head? That's why I posted because even I don't understand my situation...I use only OEM gaskets for everything except the HG..the coolant rises but no vacuum is created to pull it back in..so rings or a compression test would not be needed..from hindsight immediately after installing the HG, I wish I had put 100psi into that one cylinder to try and determine where it is leaking (live and learn)..the heads have been tested to be good useing the traditional 45psi ..the valves were also reground...as mentioned earlier another shop nearby uses 120plus psi to find problems and reading on the web has also brought up other shops that use much higher psi levels, some even useing hot and cold water to simulate different stress levels.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 I am with Deener on this one. Probably nothing wrong with the block/head/gasket. More likely you are concentrating on the wrong area. Check the intake gaskets and even the intake manifold. Could have a crack or small hole in it...never thought about the possibility of the IT manifold having problems..gaskets are OEM and the intake surface of the head has been also milled...new gasket and sealer for the throttle body was also done..will look into this.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 what engine is this? first post does not say, could be ea71, ea81, ea82 ej22, ej25etc and it will let me know if fel pro is okay or not, cause on EJ25, no way is fel pro ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) I am with Deener on this one. Probably nothing wrong with the block/head/gasket. More likely you are concentrating on the wrong area. Check the intake gaskets and even the intake manifold. Could have a crack or small hole in it. Checked with a magnifying glass..the metal is very thick..not even a hint of a potential problem..and besides it is only 1 spark plug that seems to turn excessively dark .. at the moment I am thinking the block could be the problem with the surface being to wavy..both machinists mentioned the problem and only one had the tool to take the measurements..which he thought would still be fine ...if you can picture the dial indicator running on the surface, starting at the center of the block (9 o'clock) between the 2 cylinders and representing .000..then moving the tool upward and between the bore and coolant passages to the 11 o'clock postion and the dial shows -.001 (dip).. next moving the dial to the 2 o'clock postion and the dial now shows +.003 from last position or +.002 (high point) from the center or starting point..and so it goes around the cyl like this always staying within the .0005-.001 ..still within specs for a cold engine, But what happens when the engine heats up and are these numbers going to remain as tight... Edited September 12, 2011 by Petersubaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 what engine is this? first post does not say, could be ea71, ea81, ea82 ej22, ej25etc and it will let me know if fel pro is okay or not, cause on EJ25, no way is fel pro ok..loyale EA82.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 if it's within spec i would think it should be fine, they're spec's are conservative. i just installed an EJ25 head (that's the headgasket eating version too) that was poorly resurfaced to below spec's...then resurfaced again because it was a bad job....below spec's, holding just fine. but granted at least this one is flat. i would much rather have a thinner head (some say i do ) that's flat than a wavy block like you're saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92_rugby_subie Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Upon a question from my own EA82 and searching for an EA82 for my friend, I asked GeneralDisorder about this topic. I asked if Subaru OEM or Autozone Fel-Pro was better and his response was that on the EA's he uses the Fel-Pro because they dont require a retorque. I plan to use this gasket when I do my EA82 seal up (if I dont find another motor that suits my preference before then) especially at only $24.99 each. Edit: Link added: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/1986-Subaru-GL/Head-Gasket/_/N-ije30Z8znn3?filterByKeyWord=Headgasket&fromString=search Edited September 13, 2011 by 92_rugby_subie Link Added Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indrid cold Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Been several years since I did this so can't remember exact details but you will get the idea: With heads torqued (no-valve covers nor exhaust pipes connected), intake manifold installed (no alt, etc so you can see engine) fill with water and perform a pressure test 10 psi on block/coolant side and perform a close visual inspection of heads, exhaust, intake etc... That is the only way I found my leak, pin hole in head between exhaust and coolant side. I burped as much air out through upper by pass hose on air intake to fill engine, use air compressor with gauge & isolation valve and used light and waited. My thought was if it is anywhere in the heads it would show itself out the exhaust pipe or intake would fill piston etc... luckly mine was easy to find... My .02 cents and can post this because I HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE and it worked........*for me. good luck. *Results may vary. Edited September 13, 2011 by Indrid cold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 if it's within spec i would think it should be fine, they're spec's are conservative. i just installed an EJ25 head (that's the headgasket eating version too) that was poorly resurfaced to below spec's...then resurfaced again because it was a bad job....below spec's, holding just fine. but granted at least this one is flat. i would much rather have a thinner head (some say i do ) that's flat than a wavy block like you're saying...I remember well your problems (belt sander finish) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Been several years since I did this so can't remember exact details but you will get the idea: With heads torqued (no-valve covers nor exhaust pipes connected), intake manifold installed (no alt, etc so you can see engine) fill with water and perform a pressure test 10 psi on block/coolant side and perform a close visual inspection of heads, exhaust, intake etc... That is the only way I found my leak, pin hole in head between exhaust and coolant side. I burped as much air out through upper by pass hose on air intake to fill engine, use air compressor with gauge & isolation valve and used light and waited. My thought was if it is anywhere in the heads it would show itself out the exhaust pipe or intake would fill piston etc... luckly mine was easy to find... My .02 cents and can post this because I HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE and it worked........*for me. good luck. *Results may vary. I get the idea..definitely on my list for next time..I will pump it up from time to time and leave it on all night if I have too..I should have done it last time, but, I said to myself "there is no need and the day is getting short"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Checked with a magnifying glass..the metal is very thick..not even a hint of a potential problem..and besides it is only 1 spark plug that seems to turn excessively dark .. at the moment I am thinking the block could be the problem with the surface being to wavy..both machinists mentioned the problem and only one had the tool to take the measurements..which he thought would still be fine ...if you can picture the dial indicator running on the surface, starting at the center of the block (9 o'clock) between the 2 cylinders and representing .000..then moving the tool upward and between the bore and coolant passages to the 11 o'clock postion and the dial shows -.001 (dip).. next moving the dial to the 2 o'clock postion and the dial now shows +.003 from last position or +.002 (high point) from the center or starting point..and so it goes around the cyl like this always staying within the .0005-.001 ..still within specs for a cold engine, But what happens when the engine heats up and are these numbers going to remain as tight... My guess is when the heads are torqued, these measurements will change again. And when the engine is up to operating temperatures, another change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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