Serious help needed... Battery grounded out on engine.

[Lawsonmh15]

So, the last time was active here, it was due to my friend's (manages a shop locally) mechanic improperly changed my coolant, resulting in a blown HG. Believe it or not, it took about 6 months to get it resolved and the resolution was that I HAD to pay for the parts and they would comp the labor.

 

So, since that was as good as it got, I took it. Aside from the fact that it took them 7 days to do a 2 day job, when I drove it home after the repair, I could hear relays clicking from the DS dash area. It also would shudder when the relay(s) clicked, with the end result being it completely died while driving, wouldn't start, and smoke came out of the E-Brake compartment. I looked in to find that the cable was orangish red...

 

I phoned my friend, the manager, told him my car died and was trying to blow me up and he came down and towed me back to his shop. As we looked it over, we noticed that the positive cable that goes from the battery to the starter was black in a certain area and after getting some light on it, it became obvious that the shield had melted and that the cable was grounding out on the engine...

 

The next day they found five minutes to replace the cable and said it was all good. I go and pick it up thinking, "that's kind of a HUGE ************ up" for the solution to be as simple as "we replaced the battery cable and it's all good".

 

It was. Now I hear relays click and it periodically feels like it shudders or loses power while driving, and more often at idle at stop lights. It has apparently also taken a liking to display dash lights (mainly the E-brake) for no particular reason and only every so often...

 

I took it back in, they diagnosed it to be the Transmission control module, ordered it and I took it in today and they said it solved the problem, but it wouldn't go over 10MPH... However, upon picking it up I noticed that the time on the clock hadn't changed so I called my friend to ask if they tried resetting the ECU and he said no. :banghead:

 

At this point I'm amazed they have any business at all, but since my friend is looking for a new ecu, I let it go at that. My gut feeling is that the bulk of major electronics need to be replaced, (ECU, TCM, alternator, battery, relays) but I'm not a mechanic, albeit I appear to know more than someone who considers themselves such...

 

So, here's my question, What could it be??? Clearly his mechanics are terrible and any place I've called for help has given me the "$150 diag and we can tell you" line, but since it took like 3 posts from members here to diagnose my past problems, I'm hopeful this will be about the same. I'm REALLY hoping someone here has forgotten to zip-tie their positive cable and had the same result and can definitively tell me what it is. I realize this should be the mechanic's job, but as you can see, I have ZERO faith in their abilities, and the utmost in the community's, so thanks in advance? I'm hoping it's as simple as resetting the ECU with the new TCM installed, or new ecu and tcm, but since they're completely responsible for any and all labor and parts, I couldn't care less I guess. Thanks again.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Lawsonmh15

[Rooster2]

Well, I think the first thing, is to tell us what year and model car you have?

 

Start with the basic.......is the Check engine light on? If so, get the codes read, then fix what the codes tell you that needs to be fixed.

[bstone]

Well, I think the first thing, is to tell us what year and model car you have?

 

Start with the basic.......is the Check engine light on? If so, get the codes read, then fix what the codes tell you that needs to be fixed.

 

+

[the3rsss]

Relays clicking, dash lights going on, other weird electrical stuff. Could it be that when your battery cable shorter it toasted an already weak battery? And now your getting symptoms of low voltage? Would be easy to test.

[jarl]

First of all: if you appreciate your friendship, stop using your friend's shop. Nothing good will result from that.

 

I've seen in this forum reports of ECUs going berzek after being without power for a few seconds, but working correctly after disconnecting the battery for a couple of hours. Hopefully that's your problem.

 

Now... do I understand correctly that when you looked down the hand brake mounting area you saw an overheated cable? If the cable that rubbed against the engine was the one from the battery to the starter, it has drawn hundreds of amps (have you ever melted a wrench between the battery + and ground?). I'm surprised the battery is still working, but at least in theory the ECU / transmission control module should have been spared (the current would flow through the shorter path, which excludes your electronics)

 

Finally, if the positive cable took that amount of amps, the ground points took those as well. Did you check the grounding cables to make sure nothing is fried there?

[Fairtax4me]

It also would shudder when the relay(s) clicked, with the end result being it completely died while driving, wouldn't start, and smoke came out of the E-Brake compartment. I looked in to find that the cable was orangish red...

 

Wait you mean INSIDE the car the cable was glowing? I can't even imagine a way to explain that.

 

Jarl is on the right track. If the battery cable shorted out, the battery is probably F'd. Both power and ground cables need to be replaced. Don't forget the small wire that grounds the body to the battery.

 

All in all, you need to find a new shop. And a new friend too if he's been working on your car.

[Lawsonmh15]

Wait you mean INSIDE the car the cable was glowing? I can't even imagine a way to explain that.

 

Jarl is on the right track. If the battery cable shorted out, the battery is probably F'd. Both power and ground cables need to be replaced. Don't forget the small wire that grounds the body to the battery.

 

All in all, you need to find a new shop. And a new friend too if he's been working on your car.

 

Yes. Bright orange.

 

99 SUS.

[Lawsonmh15]

well, i think the first thing, is to tell us what year and model car you have?

 

Start with the basic.......is the check engine light on? If so, get the codes read, then fix what the codes tell you that needs to be fixed.

 

99 sus

[The Dude]

My question is: did the positve battery cable insulation melt because excessive current was first drawn through it? Or, was there first a cut in the insulation and when the bare metal cable touched the starter case excessive current was drawn thereby melting the cable insulation?

 

Either way, when an automotive battery has a dead short a huge amount of current will flow. The flow of currrent should be from the positive battery cable through the case of the starter motor, then through the engine block, then through the negative battery cable and into the negative battery terminal. If this was the path of the currrent your electronics may have been spared.

 

I'm surprised that your battery didn't melt or boil over. At the very least, I would replace the battery and cables. You had your car serviced by what you describe as an unskilled repair business. So, now you have an added complication. Are your exisiting problems due to the batttery shortening out? Or, are your exisitng problems due to substandard repairs your car was subjected to while it was in the shop? You will probably never know.

 

Your intermitttently clicking relays and loss of power makes me think that you might have an intermittent short, or more likely, an open in your car's wiring.

 

From your description, a stray currrent path turned your parking brake cable into an outsized, glowing toaster heater element. A lot of currrent flowed through your car. Tracking down and repairing all the damage may prove to be time consuming.

Edited November 19, 2011 by The Dude

[porcupine73]

Sorry to hear about that story, it doesn't sound good!

 

A couple things that come to mind, the clicking of relays and odd behavior - are the test connectors under the dash connected by any chance? That will make all kinds of things cycle on and off.

 

The loss of power, things like that, sounds like the timing might be off.

 

The wires glowing orange and such is obviously not good. There may be other related damage now.

[jarl]

Ok... I'ver read your original post again, and I think we all are reading something that is not explicitly said. At least in my case, I think I've made my mind after reading the title ("battery grounded on engine").

 

What I realized is the following: had the battery really have grounded on the engine, the battery cables involved would have melted, and the battery would be no more. The fact you mention "it was black in a certain area" means it may have probably arced somehow at some point, but it doesn't necessarily mean that was your problem. In the same tune, I doubt any computer has been compromised.

 

If you saw a cable glowing inside the car, I think *THAT* was -and probably continues being- your problem. Let's stress this out: IF YOU HAVE NOT CORRECTED THAT, YOUR CAR MAY BURN TO THE GROUND ANY MINUTE . I'm not saying you have not corrected it, but given the possible consequences...

 

Now: do you know which cable was the one behaving like a bulb? Anything inside the car that is connected to the (+) side of the battery most probably runs through a fuse, and I doubt any cable would start glowing before a fuse is blown (unless it's a fusible link, but I don't think there's any in there). Can you take a picture of the cable?

 

A (+) cable arcing to ground would probably lower the voltage on the ECU enough to kill the car (which will in turn light a few lights on the dashboard)

[Fairtax4me]

Yes. Bright orange.

 

99 SUS.

 

That is bad in more ways than one.

First, as Jarl mentioned, the car could literally burn to it's shell if the short that caused that isn't found and repaired.

Second, if it was the parking brake cable, the cable is now damaged and will probably break the next time you wrench up that handle.

 

No matter what you do, the first thing you should do is go unhook the negative cable on the battery.

The next thing is to figure out why the brake cable was glowing.

[the3rsss]

As jarl said, major short. And yes everything is fuse protected so a fuse or visible link should have tripped. The only wire that is not fuse protected is the positive battery wire. I think you found the short (pos bat to ground). You need to go over the starting and charging system real well. Like somebody said earlier, your battery is probably shot. Is go over the ground carefully also. Replace neg cable. What voltage is the battery putting out idle? Running? Should be 12 and 13 to 14 running.

[Lawsonmh15]

After sitting there for two hours, his dude told me I could start calling subie specialists and they'd pay for it, and the repairs, but I asked if we could just try replacing the battery, (which I mentioned when I showed up) and since about 2:30 this afternoon I haven't had any of the issues I was having... wow. Honestly, it runs better than it has in years and my gas mileage is back to ~400 mi/tank.

 

I actually feel bad for my buddy since he can't afford to fire the guy until a suitable replacement is found. Unfortunately, the dudes who have applied have been mainly from grease monkey or one trick ponies who have experience in one area. If anyone from the Denver area reads this, has good experience doing a multitude of vehicles and is looking for a job, and is very reliable these guys see a ton of vehicles each day and have a service contract with Comcast in Centennial. They pay well and have more business than they can handle. PM me if interested.

 

Tomorrow morning will be a good test to verify whether the problem is gone or not. Ever since my E brake cable tried to become a nuclear reactor, it has been horrible first thing in the morning so it will be interesting to see how it reacts. I may have them take a look at the ignition too since one of the manager's, whom I also trust, said he thought it could be due to something ignition related. Now that I have seen it here too, I'll likely ask about it. Nonetheless, until they get a solid replacement in for their current guy, I won't be back for any reason, which kind of sucks...

 

I know that there have been very few of these types of fubars at their shop, and it's weird because the two managers are friends, and I know they were both incredibly embarrassed that I went in for a coolant change, which resulted in a blown HG (which was everyone on these boards pointed to and I went back to over, and over) as well as how the owner handled the whole situation. I can't imagine how bad they feel knowing that the posts here were what diagnosed the problem again. I'm kind of amazed that mechanics don't come here and post when they get stumped. I do computer repair and I'm not ridiculous enough to believe I'm going to conjure up every answer to every problem I come across. That's why taking the time to find the best boards available is a worthwhile endeavor for anything. Google's pretty helpful too.

 

At this point I've lost the direction with this post and it's time to throw in the towel and call it a night.

[Cougar]

I assume the E-brake wire was making a ground connection when the battery cable fault happened. The insulation on the wire surely melted and may have caused damage to other wires inside the harness the wire runs in. The harness should be inspected for internal wire damage.

[Lawsonmh15]

It's back in full force...

[The Dude]

It's back in full force...

 

 

If by "back in full force", you mean that your problems have returned, I'm not at all surprised. I've never heard of a glowing e-brake cable before, and I doubt that anyone one else on this board has either.

 

At this point you may have a damaged wiring harness with burnt and intermittent connections. BTW, wiring harness problems almost never put a smile on the face of a professional mechanic. You may be looking at:

1. Trying to find what caused the e-brake wire to glow.

2. Carefully inspecting the electrical connections in your car

3. Inspecting, and mostly likely, replacing the wiring harness in your car.

 

This likely to take a lot of shop time, and therefore, a lot of money. Good luck.

Edited November 19, 2011 by The Dude

[jarl]

Before performing surgery, it would be nice if you could show us a picture of what/where it was glowing... just sayin'

[the3rsss]

Ok. Before you start putting in a new wiring harness I think you need to take a look at the basics. Have you tested your charging system? The fact that the car ran fine for a time after you replaced the battery tells me it could be a bad alternate. I said this before....real simple test, 13 to 14v at batt terminals with engine running . Look at the obvious stuff first.

[Lawsonmh15]

Ok. Before you start putting in a new wiring harness I think you need to take a look at the basics. Have you tested your charging system? The fact that the car ran fine for a time after you replaced the battery tells me it could be a bad alternate. I said this before....real simple test, 13 to 14v at batt terminals with engine running . Look at the obvious stuff first.

 

That's the next direction we're going with it. Tomorrow I'm taking it in so they can slap a new one in. Hopefully that will resolve it, but if not, they may need to to weigh the option of replacing the vehicle a bit more seriously...

[Lawsonmh15]

Before performing surgery, it would be nice if you could show us a picture of what/where it was glowing... just sayin'

 

If you were to remove the two screws holding the top of the console between the two front seats, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. Bright orange and produced smoke.

[jarl]

Yup... I know the general area. The question I have is whether that's the only cable in the area or not, and where does it go. If the voltage was applied between both ends of the cable (i.e. the cable goes to ground and the +12 were applied to the distal end of the cable) then there's a good chance the whole length of cable -and the harness along it- is fried. The only safe option in that case would be to replace the harness

[the3rsss]

Wait wait wait.....I think he's talking about the actual parking brake cable! The cable that actually applies the brakes!

[jarl]

Hummm... really? OP, can you confirm? Because it would be one *really* weird incident in that case.

[Fairtax4me]

That's the only "cable" in there. There is a small ground wire for the brake light switch, but nothing else electrical AFAIK. If the brake light switch wire was glowing it would have probably ignited the insulation and lit the car on fire. The rest of the harness runs under the carpet along the rocker panels.

 

The brake cable was clearly acting as a ground path for a large amount of current. But from where to where?

 

My best guess... The burned battery cable shorted against one of the brake lines that leads to the rear brakes, and the power grounded back to the body through the e brake cable. That seems to me is the only ground point in the rear suspension. Everything else (lateral arms, trailing arms, springs) has rubber bushings or insulators to prevent NVH.

 

The only other place for it to go is through the knuckle and wheel bearing into the axle housing, then through the axle shaft into the rear diff. From there it would go up the driveshaft to the transmission output shaft. Then it would have to go through another bearing before going into the transmission case. But you're talking about ~half a dozen points along that path where the electricity would have to pass through a greased joint or oiled bearing surface. Grease and oil are both very highly electrically resistant.

 

I'd suggest carefully checking the hard brake lines under the hood near the starter/battery cable area, then carefully inspecting the rear brake hoses (the rubber ones) for signs of burning or overheating.

The rubber hoses themselves will not conduct electricity, but I'm pretty sure brake fluid will. So it would be a good idea to flush the brake fluid as well.

 

How's that for a wild theory?