glkiller2 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hi ALL! So my old 92 Legacy (EJ22 NA) has always had a valve tap that used to come (when cold) and go (within 10 seconds of startup) or when warm, but now won't go:) Taps pretty loud. It still runs good and even gets decent mileage (slight drop). It has 295,000 miles and still gets 28MPG with this prob (winter city driving). I bought a spare set of heads from a junkyard and took them to the machine shop to make sure they r in gr8 shape. Good thing because NAPA has had said heads now for 3 weeks, I could not let my car be down for that long. I was worried that the valve would fatique and break off causing even more damage. I can't detect any bottom end noise, no slap, no knocks. My question is this: I've heard from half the people I tell about my project that I should rebuild the bottom end anytime I change the heads. They say putting new heads on an old set of crankshaft bearings is going to be trouble. I plan on doing a compression test before I tear into it. and trying to detect any bearing play after the heads are off. If those tests go ok I think I could get away with just the head replacement. This will be the first major repair I've had to do in the 6 years I've owned and punished it driving HWY 97 from Lapine to Redmond regularly. So I'm willing if I can get much more out of it. I'm not looking to mod it to increase power or anything, I'm happy with current performance for that matter. Should I rebuild all the way? BTW I've already tried additives to stop the noise, It's beyond that I think. Probably an o-ring went bad. I thought the Space Shuttle Challenger taught us about o-ring reliability. (Hate the dang things) But what can we do? Any opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harik Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) It depends on what you want and can afford. 300,000 is a lot miles on a bottom end even if it is not making noise. If you dont have a lot of money and your not that worried about reliability( and like working on it ) use your old short block.New heads on the old short block are not going to hurt anything unless you take it out and thrash it. If it were mine and I didn't have the money for a complete bottom end rebuild, I would at least disassemble it and measure and replace what wasn't spec( you may end up replacing quite a bit anyway). Edited March 1, 2012 by Robert Harik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Just how hard is it to split the block and get back together? Scary for me. I've never even changed heads, I think I can get it done though. I have the haynes book on it and downloaded a pdf on a full rebuild. Youtube is pretty useless from what I've found. I am a machinist (not for motors) and I am also worried about the 295,000. Those bearings are sure to be out of spec by now:) Piston pins etc... Can you just split the case, pulling 2 pistons out of 1 side, unbolt crank and pull out other 2? I WILL read up on it b4 I do it of course. Also, what are people's thoughts on getting new head bolts? Is putting stock bolts back in a bad idea and why? Thanks for the reply! Edited March 1, 2012 by glkiller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harik Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) If its your daily driver and if you have not rebuilt an engine before ,you might want to by a used engine and rebuild it as you have time and money and not touch your short block( use it as is)You said you had decent power( probably decent compression) and your not burning a lot of oil ? More the a quart every 1000 miles.If you don't have a oil pressure gauge install one ,it will tell you a lot about the condition of your bottom end. Your a machinist so in your job you have to pay attention to detail, so with the proper tools and a Factory service manual for your year ( you can find free downloads) you would probably be fine. Don't use anything but the factory service manual( you can use the other manuals for extra tips) for your main source of info. One thing ,if the head bolts are torque to yield type DONT reuse them , I don't care what the manual says( even the factory manual), use new OEM ones( if they are not TTY ,if they are in spec then reuse them). Edited March 1, 2012 by Robert Harik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) You are talking about doing ALOT of work for absolutely NO reason. Ticking lifters is a common issue on this engine. The valves are not going to break. What kind of oil are you using? Varnish buildup on the lifters will prevent them from filling properly and can also allow them to bleed out when the engine is off. This might be causing your tick at startup. Using a high mileage oil will clean the varnish from the lifters and the rest of the engine. Use the recommended 5w 30 weight oil and a quality filter such as Purolator. Fram filters are notorious for letting oil drain out of the engine when sitting. When the engine is restarted it takes several seconds for oil to be pumped back up into the block and heads, which is usually the main cause of ticking at startup. At worst, your are looking at replacing some lifters, which takes 15 minutes, and by no means requires removal of the heads. Edited March 1, 2012 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 +1, what he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd GT5 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I don't have anything to add tech wise, I just wanted to say hello to a fellow La Pine commuter. I live in La Pine and have been commutting to Bend for almost 13 years. The last 4.5 to 5 with my 1992 legacy wagon with 235,000 miles on it today. I just picked up a 2000 OB this week, but I'll be hanging on to my trusty 92 too. Good luck with your project. -Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 This is most likely an oil pressure or oil circulation problem. Circulation would be my guess. What happens is that the front main seal loses flexibility over time and sucks air, thereby reducing oil pressure. The screws on the backing plate can loosen up, causing the plate to back off and reducing oil circulation. Now, you can replace the front seal and replace the oil pump o-ring, Locktite the screws and tighten up the plate, OR: you can shim the oil pump. Remove that hex bolt on the side of the pump, add a shim (only 1) and replace the bolt. This will increase your oil pressure. Is this a permanent fix? Not really, but it's a good one for quite awhile. Let's face it: at 300,000 miles, sooner or later, the engine will need more than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harik Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I think what he is after is a reliable daily driver and with close to 300,000... 300,000 is about the usefull life for any gas engine (without previous major work done). He already has the heads and work done. Why is that so hard to understand? Edited March 2, 2012 by Robert Harik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 My point is, there's nothing wrong with the heads that are on it. Lifters are ticking and they won't stop, a different oil can help that. Still won't stop, it takes ten minutes to remove the rocker shaft assembly and replace the problem, worn out lifters. The oil pump is another story, and low oil pressure could be an issue here. That can be easily checked with a pressure gauge, or the oil pump can easily be removed and serviced. still not as difficult or in depth or expensive as replacing the heads. You don't get any more reliability out of an engine by replacing just the heads because it ticks. If you're dead set on rebuilding, go ahead and do the rebuild, and do it right. New bearings all around, have the crank polished, and get the block overbored and honed with new pistons and rings to fit it. New oil pump, new lifters, put it all back together with new O-rings and seals and you have an engine that is fully capable of another 300k + miles, outliving the rest of the car by a long shot. Before you do all that, ask yourself how much longer do you really want to keep and maintain this car? How long is the transmission going to last before it needs rebuild/replacement? How long before the frame rusts out? Next year? 5 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) You need a new oil pump o-ring and a new set of lifters. Not a head rebuild. 300k on the bottom end? You're nuts. Head rebuild is a waste of money. Might as well burn it - at least you'll get something out of that. I get used EJ22's with 120 to 150k on them that run perfectly for $500. Rebuilding in any capacity at that kind of mileage is a complete financial lose. GD Edited March 2, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harik Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 My point is, there's nothing wrong with the heads that are on it. Lifters are ticking and they won't stop, a different oil can help that. Still won't stop, it takes ten minutes to remove the rocker shaft assembly and replace the problem, worn out lifters. The oil pump is another story, and low oil pressure could be an issue here. That can be easily checked with a pressure gauge, or the oil pump can easily be removed and serviced. still not as difficult or in depth or expensive as replacing the heads. You don't get any more reliability out of an engine by replacing just the heads because it ticks. If you're dead set on rebuilding, go ahead and do the rebuild, and do it right. New bearings all around, have the crank polished, and get the block overbored and honed with new pistons and rings to fit it. New oil pump, new lifters, put it all back together with new O-rings and seals and you have an engine that is fully capable of another 300k + miles, outliving the rest of the car by a long shot. Before you do all that, ask yourself how much longer do you really want to keep and maintain this car? How long is the transmission going to last before it needs rebuild/replacement? How long before the frame rusts out? Next year? 5 years? All good points , that would be ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harik Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Do what you can afford. It sounds like you want to learn to work on/ rebuild the engine, this is as good a starting place as any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Id start with the rocker assembly. 3 bolts for the valve cover, 8 more bolts for the rocker. If the tick is still there after that, oil pump rebuild/reseal. Probably use another pump entirely. The shim is for idle oil pressure mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Wow thanks for all the replies guys, really appreciated. Feel like GD and FairTax pretty much r sayin I'm a dumb#%$ Sure wish Shawn or GD or someone as knowledgeable could come do that quick fix with me.. If I have to get to the oil pump I might as well do the timing belt and idlers If timing then water pump, crank seal on and on and on 300000 300000 300000 Thanks for being supportive Robert, but they're right... sigh:) And HOWDY TODD! I can't bear the thought of owning another interference engine but I wish you luck with your new OB. Tell me if you guys think this is a better plan: Just found an add on craigslist for 2 91s both running engines 1 has interior parts missing no title. $1300 I could buy both of those, steal the engine from the parts car for my current car, and give the worst of the 2 runners to my son. I can keep the parts I have for the heads until needed by a younger engine. I don't have access to $500 engines here. I was quoted $3500 for a motor not even rebuilt, very high demand here. Junkyards were at $850 for questionable motors. GD you in Portland? I could come get one from there but I'd still be paying nearly $100 in gas before I got it home. I think I will try to find a sweet deal like the one I mentioned and save the heads for that. Or sell them... But thanks guys for convincing me that the 300,000 mile engine isn't worth rebuilding... Anyone know of a sweet 92 legy in central oregon that needs a set of heads? OOO OOO OR TRADE? I still have my 83 GL.......... runs good, bad halfshafts....blah blah ...spare motor and parts Would trade for a strong motor in a heartbeat, any takers? Edited March 2, 2012 by glkiller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Harik Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Wow thanks for all the replies guys, really appreciated. Feel like GD and FairTax pretty much r sayin I'm a dumb#%$ Sure wish Shawn or GD or someone as knowledgeable could come do that quick fix with me.. If I have to get to the oil pump I might as well do the timing belt and idlers If timing then water pump, crank seal on and on and on 300000 300000 300000 Thanks for being supportive Robert, but they're right... sigh:) And HOWDY TODD! I can't bear the thought of owning another interference engine but I wish you luck with your new OB. Tell me if you guys think this is a better plan: Just found an add on craigslist for 2 91s both running engines 1 has interior parts missing no title. $1300 I could buy both of those, steal the engine from the parts car for my current car, and give the worst of the 2 runners to my son. I can keep the parts I have for the heads until needed by a younger engine. I don't have access to $500 engines here. I was quoted $3500 for a motor not even rebuilt, very high demand here. Junkyards were at $850 for questionable motors. GD you in Portland? I could come get one from there but I'd still be paying nearly $100 in gas before I got it home. I think I will try to find a sweet deal like the one I mentioned and save the heads for that. Or sell them... But thanks guys for convincing me that the 300,000 mile engine isn't worth rebuilding... Anyone know of a sweet 92 legy in central oregon that needs a set of heads? OOO OOO OR TRADE? I still have my 83 GL.......... runs good, bad halfshafts....blah blah ...spare motor and parts Would trade for a strong motor in a heartbeat, any takers? Look , there is nothing wrong with rebuilding a an engine with 300,000 miles. I have taken apart engines with less than 50,000 miles that were trashed and ones with well over 400,000 that were rebuildable. You take it apart ,measure and if the parts aren't to spec you either replace or repair them , thats it. Go to the NASIOC forum ( the built engine section) for better help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'm certain it's rebuildable, it runs great. but after reading all these posts I thought hard on it and I'm not in love with the car itself. I do want to keep with the EJ22 and I can find another younger motor in a better car cheaper than rebuilding the engine. Little ol lady in Redmond has one for $600 with 100,000 miles, says needs work. If it needs heads I'm in business right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) BTW if I get another car then my current becomes the backup:) THAT MEANS the 83 GL can be sacrificed to the RALLY IN THE WOODS GODS MWA HA HA HA. I spiced it up a bit with gasket matched (and enlarged) intake, breathers for PCV plugged all vacs blocked off EGR hehehehehe Edited March 2, 2012 by glkiller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Feel like GD and FairTax pretty much r sayin I'm a dumb#%$ Not at all, I just think you have a misunderstanding of how these engines work, and i'm trying (in a seemingly not so polite way) to educate. Sorry if I come off as rude or condescending. Had you asked about ticking valves here first you could have avoided buying a set of heads. But, you now at least have a perfectly good usable set which can easily be sold if nothing else. But seriously, don't mess with a 300k mile engine. You'll only make it mad. If you need a "new" one cheap, talk to GD. He's got the resources to get whole engines cheap, and even if you really want a rebuild I think he said not long ago that he can do most engines for under $1,000. You already have heads so all you would really need is a short-block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) But seriously, don't mess with a 300k mile engine. You'll only make it mad. If you need a "new" one cheap, talk to GD. He's got the resources to get whole engines cheap, and even if you really want a rebuild I think he said not long ago that he can do most engines for under $1,000. You already have heads so all you would really need is a short-block. Yep - I can do pretty much any EJ shortblock rebuild for $1000. Shipping to you would be about $65. But it's totally not worth in on the phase-I EJ22's - I can get engines with 120k to 150k for $500 every day of the week. I bought one last week for $475 with a $25 core with 150k on it. Runs like a top. I bought another a few weeks before it for $350 and no core with 137k on it. Also runs like a dream. Even for higher performance engines used it sometimes a better deal. I got an EJ255 short block for a customer of mine with an '02 WRX. $800 for a great condition short block from a wrecked car with 65k on it.... total no brainer. With prices and availibility being what they are on good used EJ22's.... why would you even bother cracking a short block? These are what I call "appliance" engines. It's an engine for a "commuting appliance". It's not a high performance engine, and with good care they will go 300k. $500 for another 150k of trouble-free motoring is a no-brainer. I do this all day, every day. I can tell you how best to spend your money. But I can only lead you to the river.... I can't make you drink GD Edited March 3, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 Well alright then GD, HOOK ME UP:) Maybe we can work out something on my heads if your interested. Or the 83 GL that you helped me a few years back with the disty and the EGR on a newer 160K motor. Or hey believe it or not I have CASH:) I would LOVE to throw in an engine that has your blessing. I'm perfectly comfortable swapping motors, no prob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 So you are looking for a used EJ22 right? Not a rebuilt short block... cause then you would be keeping the heads yes? :-p Shipping an entire engine would be a lot more than just a short block. Probably cheaper to drive here and get it. PM me and we can figure it out. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) dunno how to PM yet. (DUNCE CAP) Is it the Instant Message option? Edited March 3, 2012 by glkiller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 If you click on my user name you will get the option to send me a private message.... may not be there till you have over 10 posts. I see you have 10 exactly so you might have to make another one first.... I just looked online (didn't call any of my other places yet) and I see that a place in Albany has a likely candidate: 1990 Engine Subaru Legacy 169,000 A6M0067 $450 Pick A Part, Albany - PAR Member USA-OR(Albany) Request_Quote 1-800-927-5855 Request_Insurance_Quote GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glkiller2 Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Posting for PM priveledges, okay. NOGO Houston. PM me. Got it THX. So I followed the link you gave, is that block only? Would need my Heads? I'm really not too worried about using or selling the heads. I would rather get a whole new engine and save the current one for sensors and other spare parts. Edited March 3, 2012 by glkiller2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.