pwbset Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Hi. New to these forums. Need advice. '97 Legacy... right rear seized up completely. I removed the wheel to find this: The pads/shims are destroyed/gone. Rotor in bad shape. Backing plate rusting away. Caliper may still be viable, but I'm not sure. I'm very, very short on funds right now. This '97 also has bad shocks/struts and needs a front right CV job. Engine is strong. Daily driver otherwise. *sigh* Most likely the brakes all around are bad too. Wondering if I should scrap it and look for another cheap Subby or if I can throw just some cheap new pads/shims in there and buy a few more months. I need a solution by Monday as the bus I ride to work no longer runs after the winter season ends where I work. Thanks for advice!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I know all the brake parts from a early model legacy will transfer over to your newer legacy. Maybe easier to find a early model donor car in a yard. Of course, the ABS sensor, tone ring stuff is a issue, but the backing plates, calipers and rotors will bolt on and work. I know 'cause I just refitted my '97 legacy with Really nice stuff from a junk yard '92 that had a recent, thorough brake job. But, I no longer have working ABS. I'm fine with that. Welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 The pads/shims are destroyed/gone Those are cheap... $15 or so Rotor in bad shape Not 100% sure of that. Lots of surface rust, but the subjacent metal can be Ok. Backing plate rusting away Thankfully you don't brake with those Caliper may still be viable Most probably yes. I know mine were in worse condition, and are working now. You may get away with replacing the pins (maybe not even necessary), but you need to make 100% sure the new pads slide smoothly on the SS shims. In my case the metal under the shims was so rusted it had swollen, and the new pads didn't move at all. I had to use a metal file and remove some material until the pads moved again. Just make sure to use plenty of Liquid Wrench/Kano Kroil or something like that so you don't break a bolt when removing things. I'm very, very short on funds right now. Welcome to the club! I'd love to say it's an exclusive one but, alas... This '97 also has bad shocks/struts and needs a front right CV job. Engine is strong. Daily driver otherwise. *sigh* Most likely the brakes all around are bad too. Wondering if I should scrap it and look for another cheap Subby or if I can throw just some cheap new pads/shims in there and buy a few more months. I need a solution by Monday as the bus I ride to work no longer runs after the winter season ends where I work. Thanks for advice!!!! IMHO, as long as the car is not a risk to you or the other people, drive it to the ground People will try to give you next to nothing for the car anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 you need to make 100% sure the new pads slide smoothly on the SS shims. Good to know. I know from looking into the caliper itself and poking around that the pads and shims are... well... not there any more. I just see the raw piston parts on the caliper. Haha. Hoping local Napa can source me some shims also. Hmm. Might roll with that hideous rotor for awhile and see if I get lucky. Thanks for the replies guys. I appreciate it. I've not put a penny into this '97 since I swapped my Dad for my old '87 (miss that GL doggoneit) so it's been a good'un overall, but she's falling apart at the seams now since she was a PA car for 12 years. Rust. Blech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I keep using the word "shims", which is inaccurate This is what I'm talking about (spare calipers awaiting installation). The SS "thingies" ("anti-rattle shields"? red arrow) collect water/humidity between them and the caliper bracket, on the surfaces pointed at by the green arrows. If the rust is bad enough, the bracket "swells" underneath the shields (ok... bear with me ) The problem is that the pads slide on the external surface of the shields, and the tolerances -as you can see- are *extremely* tight. If the bracket distorts just a millimeter or two that's enough to prevent the pads from moving at all. If I recall correctly there's a TSB on this, and the official suggestion is sanding/filing some metal from the pads, but in my case the bracket was so badly rusted I decided to file the bracket itself until the pads moved with little effort. Not enough for rattling, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 If the bracket distorts just a millimeter or two that's enough to prevent the pads from moving at all. Aha. Wondering if that's what eventually happened to mine with all that rust. There was little warning. The "failure" during driving involved a loud KA-thunk followed by hideous scraping sounds ending with an, "uh oh... right rear wheel won't turn anymore". Luckily that happened just as I pulled into a long term parking spot. Phew. The "shields" aren't in the caliper anymore near as I can tell. I did pry a piece of what looked like one out with some pliers... mangled as it was. What's left now looks to be just the double piston pushers of the caliper itself: _______ | (o)(o) | ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 My guess would be the sliders are rusted up and seized. The inner pad was doing all the work and the outer pad never moved. Either way, Remove the rotor and file/sand/wire wheel the majority of the rust off of the braking surface, or grab a decent rotor off a junkyard car. The amount of buildup on there will chew off half the new pad before it ever gets to clean metal, and still may not entirely remove all of the rust from the braking surface of the rotor. Clean up the sliders (remove all old grease/rust/dirt and re-grease with silicone Hi-temp brake grease. You can use the little packs that are $2 or whatever on the counter at the parts store. Clean up the caliper brackets where the pads it with sand paper/ wire brush and put everything back together with a new set of pads or decent pads off a junkyard car if you can find some. Autozone has a set of pads for under $15 that will work better than what's on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 look on www.car-part.com for a complete hub assembly, with caliper. sort by price and go to the cheapest ones. and order one shipped in from the south, a non-rust state. get as much as they will ship without raising the price. (you might ask about struts as well.) you can probably get the whole assembly for both sides shipped to your door for less than $100. start spraying the axle nut and splined shaft now with pBlaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 funds are tight - then simply fix it as cheap as possible, you can essentially get away with just replacing the pads. get them from rockauto.com for $8 or $15 and you got a cheap fix. clean all of those clips - get a file, sand paper, scotch bright pads, etc and clean them up. install new pads and call it a day. if the rotors are bad then they'll simply wear the pads quicker, not a big deal at all if funds are tight. you could *almost* argue that the brakes would work more efficiently with the roughness and added bite of the rough rotors...LOL. i'm sort of kidding, but the point is it's not going to cause any issues. i've seen people run with horrific rotors before, metal shavings and all...I don't recommend it but hey if funds are tight it's really not going to matter except to wear your pads out quicker. if funds are tight, buying another car is really not a good option...fix this cheap and save your money and make good decisions from here on out such that you're not in this same position later. ask for used pads, folks have calipers and pads and parts cars lying around. could get some used pads for cheap. rockauto often has pads for DIRT cheap, check there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Make sure the caliper moves freely on it's sliders and the piston pushes back with a c-clamp when you put the new pads in. You don't even need the anti-rattle clips. Every time you do a brake job you need to wire wheel the clips and grind the rust off the surfaces the clips sit on with a cut-off wheel so the new pads slip in easily. Or if you're in a hurry or using cheapo pads, you can grind the tabs on the pads so they fit smoothly in the clips. Just coat the tabs with hi-temp brake grease so they don't rust up too. If the wheel seized up, I'd be more suspicious of the E-brake inside the rotor hat of causing your issues. You'll see when you have the caliper and pads off if it turns freely. If it doesn't, you'll need to get into the E-brake shoes. Your back brakes look the same as 90% of the mid-late 90's cars on New England roads. As long as the body isn't rusted out, fix it cheap and keep driving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 this car is a known entitiy to you - you know what it needs - keep it and fix it. buying another car you could be getting into things much more expensive than what you already have - when funds are tight, this is not a good idea - I am in the same boat with funds. as far as the brakes go - I have seen worse - it is fixable but is going to take a little time and effort. you have already received some very good advice on what to do parts are not that expensive - the slider pin/bolt can be replaced for about $17* if needed, the rubber boot kit is only about $6*, and the SS clips can be purchased new for around $20*. Add a set of pads for $15-20*, clean up the rotor with a wire wheel, put it all back together and you are good to go. total cost estimate: around $60 The only variable here that could drive the price up is the caliper itself. if you can not get the piston to move back in, then it either needs work or replacing. Caliper rebuild kits can be had for as little as $7* (basically consists of new seals) A new caliper isnt that bad @ $48* for the cheap one - the front ones are much more expensive. *prices are Northern Wisconsin prices - yours may be slightly higher or lower depending on location. First step is getting it apart and assessing just how bad things really are, and what you absolutely need to replace. if at all possible, try to save as much as you can by cleaning things up and using the brake grease as already mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Thanks to everyone for such awesome advice! Such a helpful forum! Going to look at an '87 GL and '90 Loyale today (both sub $1,500 in good shape), but based on what everyone is saying here I think I'm going to get my hands greasy later today and try to repair the right rear brake on this '97 Legacy L that I love. The caliper moves freely and the pistons are compressible with a c-clamp so that gives me a bit of hope. Thanks again!! Edited April 4, 2012 by pwbset Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 just an added tip when compressing the piston - take the top off the resevoir before starting - makes things much easier. also, use a piece of plywood or metal that fits across the piston(s) to compress it - makes a nice flat surface for the camp, and distributes the pressure evenly to the piston(s). just make sure that whatever you use clears the caliper so you can compress the piston fully. Good luck - let us know how it goes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Going to look at an '87 GL and '90 Loyale today (both sub $1,500 in good shape). I think I'm going to try to repair the right rear brake on this '97 Legacy L that I love. If you put $1500 into your 97 legacy you will have a much better car than the Loyales ever were. If you can do the work yourself you should be able to do brakes all round and rear struts for $400. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 If you put $1500 into your 97 legacy you will have a much better car than the Loyales ever were. It's a tough call for me really.. the '97 is a total eastern rust bucket. The '87 I went and looked at yesterday for $750 was completely rust free (Montana car) and needs minimal work to be a nice daily driver. I swear Montana is where old Subarus go in the after life. There are some gems here. I've had '89, '87 and '86 GLs before and loved them. Then again I had an '89 Westfalia years ago and currently am restoring a '72 VW bay window camper and would take the older bay over the vanagon style any day of the week. Legacys just lack a certain character to me despite that they have things like airbags and fuel injection and... horsepower... haha... etc. Going to pick up my '97 brake pads now... we'll see what happens. I certainly appreciate all the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 Well... after some sweat and swearing I managed to get the right rear back into some semblance of working. Went for a test drive and there is some softness and unevenness to the braking, but I think when I do the other rear side (and front pads while I'm at it) and bleed the system with fresh fluid it should, knock wood, be alright for awhile. Once I got the caliper free you can see the inner pad that shot forward and lodged in the caliper seizing up the wheel. Cleaned up the area best I could with limited tools and got the new pads in. Note the outer pad's lower left sticky out thinghy? I didn't know which was outer vs inner, but it seemed to clear both sides so I just stuck them on the outside. If this is a no-no please tell me so I can swap them. I googled the snot out of the interwebs trying to find the answer, but to no avail. Caliper back on... compressed the piston with a large screwdriver since I had no c-clamp.. worked well with some muscle thrown at it. Feeling a nice sense of accomplishment. I'm a web developer by trade... not a mechanic so it was nice to see this worked at least enough to get me to work and back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 As a QC check, touch the lug nuts on each wheel after you've done a bit of driving. Both fronts and both rears should be equally warm. (Fronts usually run hotter because they do more of the braking work.) Side-to-side temps should be very close. If one side is much hotter, you've still got a problem with brake drag. Hope doing the other side and fronts gets you where you need to be with the brakes. Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Feeling a nice sense of accomplishment. I'm a web developer by trade... not a mechanic Good Job! It is a nice feeling to do things yourself, isnt it? the little "sticky-outy thingy" is commonly called a squealer - it is supposed to give you warning that you need new pads when the pads get down to the point of that thing rubbing on the rotor - as long as it isnt hanging up on or interfering with anything, it is fine where it is. get to do my fronts tomorrow - the squealer has been talking to me for a few days now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 I would have replaced the rotor as well but if you need it done on the uber-cheep, just new pads will suffice. Never seen one fall out and wedge between the rotor and bracket that way, that must have been rubbing metal on metal for a while. You did the other side too right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 6, 2012 Author Share Posted April 6, 2012 You did the other side too right? I will be doing the other side on Saturday yes and no more driving until then... front pads as well. As soon as money allows I'll probably replace the rotors. I did wire wheel it as best I could with my measly 18v cordless drill. *rolls eyes* Haha. Will try that temp check also this weekend and make sure things are "normal". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) The squealer tab goes on the inside pad on the leading edge of the pad as the rotor turns forward. That's because the inner leading edge is usually the fastest wearing area of the pads. That means the pad you put on the right side outer spot really belongs in the left side inner spot. Doesn't really matter though, it's not a safety issue. Edited April 6, 2012 by WoodsWagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpwoody Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Just a thought...my local parts house turned my rotors for free...nice clean braking surface for the new pads...good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Don't be surprised if the first few days the temperature is slightly different... one of the rotors is probably in better shape than the older other one, an will take some miles to sand the surface a bit using the pads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwbset Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Did the left side rear without any fanfare. Equally ugly as the right. Then did the fronts since I was sold the front pads initially by mistake. Why not. The front rotors are in WAY better shape than the rears, but the pads were bare/destroyed. New pads went in very easily and a 3" c-clamp got the piston/caliper back on easy peasy. Only problem now is I need two new front tires... ouch... these are only 3 yrs old, but without shocks/struts/alignment it's hardly surprising they're worn to the bone. Rears have most of their tread still. Les Schwab won't sell me just two fronts so I'm going to go with a local tire shop... damn the transfer case... I just need to get through the summer until the work bus runs again next fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattocs Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Are you going to be driving around in FWD mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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