Battle Wagon Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I'm finally starting on the Subaru I've always wanted to build. I tried to round this stuff up back in 02 but at that time there were only a couple Aussie outfits building lift kits and offoroad bits - not much else. I paid a guy in eugene (john bloom) to modify my 96 OB with the GL parts but he kept my $$ and never did a thing to my car - nice guy. Anyway, here is what I'm trying to build : an offroad ( forest road rally and moderate rock crawling) oriented legacy that is still road worthy. Planning on a lot of modifiactions ( many already complete) but I'll focus on the drivetrain for this thread. I want a 4.11 setup with an EJ DR box. I've ruled out the GL setup for several reasons. I've contacted a couple outfits in Australia about getting the gearbox and it sounds doable - just need some help deciding what options. The stock trans (5MT) is losing 4th and the rear and is going out so I'm basically ready to change the entire drivetrain.So here are the questions .... Would I be better upgrading to a newer model 5MT ? Sti....? Here's the source I found for the box - http://subarutransmission.com.au/ Anyone have experience with these guys ? They're the same ones selling 5MT DR kits on ebay... They offer a bunch of different options for the viscous coupling and or VLSD . What would be the best option ? Currently I have the stock EJ22 NA but I have a rebuildable EJ22T on hand. Will using the 22T change compatibility for the running gear ? I REALLY want to put the turbo motor in and build to about 200-240 HP. I think that's a pretty conservative build to minimize broken parts later. Any thoughts ? Which driveline(s) ? Probably custom....? Which rear end ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) supposedly in 06 the MTs got a better synchronizer in low gear - seems like most of th folks searching for a magic 'cocktail' gear oil for their 5pds at NASIOC have pre-06 gearboxes so, their 'could' be a very slight advantage to shopping for a post 05 unit I guess. The sti 6spd is a different beast altogether. maybe it's best to let the guys buidling the dr pick which tranny they like to work with? and, if you KNOW you're going big power, you might consider dog tooth gears, at least for 1st and second gear. just ideas from reading, I have no experience doing what you plan - sounds like a lot of fun building a beast like you describe! Edited May 21, 2014 by 1 Lucky Texan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Love your user name by the way! My .02 Are you looking to be competitive in rally stuff or just have a capable fun car? My approach to turbos has always kept me away from them. That extra power = more broken parts. Both from the turbo motors being higher cost & maintenance and from the parts they can destroy. Getting an EJ dual range in there will probably take a good bit of your time and money. If I went to the trouble of having/building one, I'd use it, but baby it and get a long life out of it. It would suck to have it and see it die. The EJ22 is such a bullet proof motor that I'd want good reason to ever leave it. Maybe go frankenmotor for a power gain without losing reliability. But for any off roading and wheeling I've done, I've never lacked power in the EJ22. If anything it's a bit much moving my Impreza around on the rocks. The larger heavier legacy may dampen that though, and the lower gearing you'll have, which I lack. Maybe ask some of the guys who have EJ swapped their GLs and Loyales if they'd ever want more power to it. If it were me, I'd be selling that EJ22T to fund the dual range. Then you'd have something simple, easy to work on (Or replace. EJ22s are dime a dozen in a lot of yards.) and quite capable. If you're talking about going balls to the wall off road rally stuff then, ignore these thoughts. Broken parts and damage/abuse are a bit of a given for that application. Just food for thought. These are some of things I'd consider with a build like you're suggesting. Be sure to properly document the process. A build thread in the members rides would be fun to follow. Also, keep the contacts and process you use getting your dual range. I'm sure other members will be following suit. I just saw the kit for a phase II 5MT dual range option those guys have on ebay. Certainly has me thinking for the 2000 outback. Sounds like those guys are helpful so far. Good luck with the build. Sounds cool no matter which direction you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Wagon Posted May 22, 2014 Author Share Posted May 22, 2014 No, no actual rally racing. I'm a professional forager so I spend tons if time running the FS roads in the PNW looking for mushrooms, antlers, etc. I drive 40-50k mi every year - a lot of it on dirt. I also tow a 4-wheeler trailer a lot of the time and the extra hp will help with that. I agree with you about weighing the trade off between increased HP and parts longevity but 220+ hp is a pretty conservative build ( I think)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 another way to approach the project, a full swap from a wrx. 06 or 07 gets you about 230hp I think. and a 96 chassis is probably lighter than an 06 so, should be quite peppy. rear VLSD too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 The trans should be able to handle the HP under good conditions. Off road, towing and (I'm assuming) larger than stock tires will all add some strain on the transmission and affect it's longevity. if you go turbo, you can reduce some of that wear and tear by reducing some of your vehicle's weight and making the job a little easier for your trans. The 5MT is a pretty stout transmission. A lot will come down to how you drive it. If you're conservative when towing and such, it should stand up just fine. I've seen the way kids abuse Imprezas/WRXs and such and the cars somehow manage to survive longer than I think they should. If you're caring for yours I'm sure it will serve your purposes just fine. Professional forager? Sounds cool! A buddy of mine in our hunting camp in Pennsylvania found a huge set of Elk sheds a couple years ago. Ended up selling them for a nice chunk of change. The thought crossed my mind that there would be money in such searches. Good to know it's worth the while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Wagon Posted May 22, 2014 Author Share Posted May 22, 2014 More reasoning behind the 22T... Removed airbags stuff, power seatbelts ( used OB manual belts during full interior swap),rear seat bottom belts, etc... Pulled anything unnecessary but I'll probably put the same back on with welded bumpers, roof rack, lighting, etc... Forester Struts ( looking into King Lift Springs) , 235/15 or 31" tires with 1" wheel spacers ( and probably some wheel well persuasion ), keeping AC, ..... I'm going to be putting a pretty good load on the trans - I'm thinking about the low range and wondering if that multiplies or reduces strain on the trans ?? Whats the correct answer there ? Hoping to find later model axles that may be beefier also... The EJ22T ,from what I understand , runs great on a stock NA ECU with 3 additional circuits. WRX stuff is WAY more involved. I'm also going to build the motor for torque but don't have the recipe yet... I was really torn about trying the SVX 6cyl but the wiring harness merge scared me off. Guys are also breaking 5MT's with that motor and I believe it's 230 ish HP so that's where I came up with a target of 220-240 hp, hoping I can milk it and potentially have it rebuilt beefier if it take a crap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 you don't want the tranny internals to be the weakest link. You might be able to get home AND do a cheap repair if you braek a half axle or u-joint though. sounds likea fun project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blk99obs Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) Personally, and take this with a grain of salt because I've only done lift and 4.11 lego trans in my car, I'd look into a regular old EJ22 with a supercharger. I've heard of people using ones for yotas on them. For off road, the lower end and instant-on grunt, would be preferrable IMO to the peaky and less responsive power of a turbo, and I think the reliability would be better than a turbo, because if the yota blowers are anything like the one I had on my honda then you don't have it sharing oil and/or coolant with the motor, necessitating more frequent changes so the dirty oil doesn't screw up the turbo, which you'll already be changing the oil more due to the harsh operating conditions. I'd be taking a hard look at putting one on my car when my new EJ22 goes in, but its phase-2 and MAP unfortunately, so no boost for me. If I had an older imp or lego with MAF though, you can bet that thing would be getting some supercharger love. Edited May 24, 2014 by blk99obs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Wagon Posted May 24, 2014 Author Share Posted May 24, 2014 Talked to the Aussie guys on the phone last night. Super excited ! They're going to build me a MY 08-10 4:11 5MT Dual range with 1.447 low and a Cusco LSD front diff. Can not wait ! Got the 1" wheel spacers on the front today in preparation for the tires but after taking a closer look at the rear I think I need 1.25" ? Can anybody confirm who's done this before if 1.25" will be necessary to run 235/75/15 (28"). Downscaling from the 31's I'd originally considered for cost, front end wear, etc... Also want to know the tallest Forester Spring strut combo ( and any downsides to that setup). Thinking a 09' + Forester strut with King Springs but can't find the actual height... Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I know the 28 inch tires have been cleared with 1 inch spacers on Impreza. I assumed the same would hold true for legacy/outback. 1.25 would be a little extra insurance for clearance, but tougher on the bearings. As I understand 98-02 or 03 foresters yield the most lift, but the 04+ can clear slightly larger tires. I have 99 forester stuff on my Impreza and clear 215 75 15 tires with a little room to spare. With one inch spacers there would be room to move up a few sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Wagon Posted May 25, 2014 Author Share Posted May 25, 2014 I know the 28 inch tires have been cleared with 1 inch spacers on Impreza. I assumed the same would hold true for legacy/outback. 1.25 would be a little extra insurance for clearance, but tougher on the bearings. As I understand 98-02 or 03 foresters yield the most lift, but the 04+ can clear slightly larger tires. I have 99 forester stuff on my Impreza and clear 215 75 15 tires with a little room to spare. With one inch spacers there would be room to move up a few sizes. That's the exact setup that's on my rig now. I had just heard that at some point the Forester struts got taller again ( like '09). I'm sure the measurements are out there- just thought someone moght know off the top of their head. No problem , I'll dig it up. Looking for max suspension lift. Not interested in doing the body lift thing... Next question, with those spacers on I've got all kinds of room for brakes. What's the best brake setup to run ? Maybe I'll just swap out the whole knuckle to one that might run bigger brakes and bigger axles... Does this exist ? I assume I can have my builder put different stub shafts in the trans and then find the right rear end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 (edited) HI, I have some EJ22T experience and you'll have turbo lag to deal with. That might get in the way of any rock crawling. I'm running a bigger turbo and a 'Rob Tune d' EJ20G ECU and made about 225 hp/250 ft-lbs w/my '93 Legacy SS. This AT THE WHEELS - not crank. The EJ22T has SOHC low-flowing heads which get in the way too. If you put some DOHC heads on you should be closer to 250-275 HP. That's about MAX unless you go to a stand alone engine management and a bigger MAF. An NA ECU will NOT get you there. You CAN turbo the stock EJ22, but then you're running into reliability issues, and you'll want to be VERY careful about how much boost you run and a host of other variables. For what you're wanting to do an NA EJ22/EJ25 sounds best. Put some Delta cams in the 2.2 for a torque boost. I'd go look over on Legacy Central for more info. Be aware of your CV angles w/lotsa lift. At some point they'll get over-stressed - I don't know when. Note the rear suspension on the '09+ Forester changed on the rear, I believe - no longer compatible w/the early versions - Forester or Legacy. GL, TD Edited May 26, 2014 by wtdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Auto would be the way to go for rock crawling anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 (edited) Auto would be the way to go for rock crawling anyway. +1 Also, I don't know your budget, but you might be getting into WRX>>STi territory w/your goals. You could get a hatch/wagon version, lift it, and - esp. w/an STi - you'd have much more performance potential - the power-adders are readily avl. WRX: TD Edited May 26, 2014 by wtdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Wagon Posted May 26, 2014 Author Share Posted May 26, 2014 Thanks for the input guys. I'm not looking to build a true crawler nor a rally car - just a more versatile setup than stock. I've always said that the Legos just need a little more power and a little more clearance. I think the DR is going to give me the crawling capability I'm looking for and a mild mannered 22T is going to spice things up on the FS roads and make towing easier. Of the turbo doesn't kick in while I'm navigating rock piles at low speed I don't think it will matter... I do like the idea of the 2.5 heads for more torque but does this make it an interference engine ? Are there any real world numbers on torque increase with the head swap ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 There should be lots of documentation on DOHC heads on the 22t. Many people have done it, and it is a huge upgrade in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battle Wagon Posted May 26, 2014 Author Share Posted May 26, 2014 Wouldn't touch an auto at this point. Used ones are a crapshoot and I'm not paying to have one rebuilt. I took the original Battle Wagon 93 Lego) to 310k on the original auto but I owned and maintained it the entire time. I wouldn't expect to ever find that kind of reliability again. Been there done that - swapped a lot of autos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I do like the idea of the 2.5 heads for more torque but does this make it an interference engine ? Are there any real world numbers on torque increase with the head swap ? Yes...the intake and exhaust valves interfere as they are on separate cams. Depending on the piston protrusion above the deck they can also hit valves. You'll want to do the 'franken motor' search, but you get more hp/torque w/a 2.5 SHORT block and 2.2 heads. Putting 2.5 DOHC heads on any 2.2 - NA or Turbo - will reduce your CR. But w/a turbo block it's still good as it allows MORE boost. The EJ22T block w/EJ25D heads is a 7.7:1 CR; w/the EJ22e it's about 8.5:1. So, it's really only a WIN w/a turbo for either application. TD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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