the_eleven Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Am about to pull the trigger on a new Outback. Am trying to decide between the MT and AT version of the 2.5XT. Which one will do better in snow & ice? Would the choice be the same with the base engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradosubarules Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 If the auto trannys are the same quality now as they were in the early 90's....then I would go with the 5MT. You also have to think...do you want to shift all the time? Better fuel economy with a stick. Limited MPH (top speed) with stick. Less parts to break with a stick. .....etc. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 If the auto trannys are the same quality now as they were in the early 90's....then I would go with the 5MT. You also have to think...do you want to shift all the time? Better fuel economy with a stick. Limited MPH (top speed) with stick. Less parts to break with a stick. .....etc. Hope this helps. I would go with the 5MT, generally more reliable, and better in slippery stuff (you control how much power is put to the wheels, not the car). coloradosubarules, why does the manual limit the top speed more than an automatic? As for shifting all the time, the powerband on a Subaru (well at least the EJ22 engine, and I suspect that it is even better on an EJ25T) is so wide that shifting is massively reduced. You get power a lot lower in the RPM range, and it goes on up to redline. (I suspect it could go past that if the ECU didn't stop the ignition at that speed to protect the engine (or that is what I'm guessing happens)) With a 5MT you get a lot better performance, better milage (choose one ), and better reliablity. More to the point of the question posed by this thread, I trust the AWD system in the 5MT more than the electronic one in the auto. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarufanatic Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 well i needed a car and i wanted one quick, so i bought a 1990 subaru legacy ls with the 4eat awd with power/manual mode. I figured it would be nice for the traffic jams I am always in, service tech, denver co. trex is fun... anyway... after 3 months of having it i wish i would of got a 5mt instead. the tranny i have is nice with the manual mode that helps with the snow, and also off roading on colorado trails but it lacks low speed low rpm power and sucks the gas down. the 4eat uses bigger fuel injectors, or fuel injectors that inject more gas... (the part number is completely different and price difference of 30$ for new ones) Just like any auto tranny, they aren't as reliable as a manual. The home mechanic can change a clutch with no prob but cant rebuild the auto tranny. a rebuilt tranny from autozone for my car costs $2700, more than i paid for the car. The manual tranny isn't avalable because as long as you know how to drive stick, they dont go bad. The old GL series would have 2nd gear sync row issues but i havent heard that with the new one. When my tranny goes out, i am doing a 4eat to 5mt conversion since the car is paid for and i have a bunch of money in wheel bearings and other parts. I can get the parts to do a 5mt for about 700 where as the 4eat is 2700... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 The old 4eat's are not the same as the new ones. In terms of AWD, the new VTD 4eat's have a better AWD sysetm then the 5mt's which has been the same for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Fuel economy can easily be better with the auto. It depends on the conditions. Take note that the Subaru tech data on the Impreza lists a BETTER fuel economy for the Auto. The VDC equipped 2.5 auto will cope very well on slippery stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 the addage that AT gets worse gas mileage than MT is outdated. used to be *more true* than it is today. but those that say AT gets worse gas mileage (in general and not for a specific application) are regurgitating what they've heard others say. for certain applications, it is true but in general it only depends on the final gearing and the type of driving you do. so if someone says *this gets better than that* be sure they are talking about a specific car and know both transmissions well and aren't just repeating verbage they've heard in the past. the 4EAT transmission in the XT6 gets better gas mileage than the 5MT in the XT6. this is assuming everything else is equal - driver, terrain, gas, condition of motor...etc. at 75mph the 4EAT (i have two of them) runs around 3,000 rpms. at 75mph the 5MT (i've owned 4 of them) runs close to 4,000 rpm. it's louder and gets worse gas mileage at highway speeds. test drive both and see what rpm's they are at for highway driving. the one with the higher RPM at at given speed will have worse gas mileage. if they are equal, the manual transmission will get better mileage because they sustain less internal loss and are lighter. the 4EAT lock-up can be controllable. all it takes is installing a switch in line with one wire at the wiring harness to the transmission. very easy to do and well worth it for those driving off road or in the snow. with that, you have full control over lock-up, if you want it. technically you have more options than a 5MT. because you lock it up when you want to. But, when you don't have it locked up the computer can instantaneously adjust to driving conditions which the 5MT can not. if you're buying a new car you're off to a great start. a well taken care of automatic transmission can outlast the engine. install an AFTERMARKET TRANSMISSION COOLER immediately. subaru may install it for you. they are 30 dollars at the parts store and very simple to install and do wonders for AT's. a good transmission shop never returns a rebuilt or newly installed transmission without installing one of these as standard practice. by now, many older automatics are not as reliable as they are new because people haven't taken care of them, they have tons of miles without having the fluid changes, etc. that won't be an issue for a new one that you have control over. in the older transmissions (i've owned 1 XT and 6 XT6's) i find the manual transmissions weak. i've had problems with pilot bearings, throw out bearings and clutches. and i drove manual transmissions in the *early* days of owning XT6's, when they weren't nearly as old as they are now that i drive auto's. but i drive off road, mud, snow and stuff like that which is rough on a manual trans. city driving or an aggressive or off road driving style may lead to needing the clutch replaced which may end up costing more than AT maintenance. if you're not keen on maintenance or details then a manual transmission would be better suited. the manual transmissions are more forgiving. they are less sensitive to having mismatched tires and being towed improperly. if you don't rotate tires or blow tires and replace one with the wrong size or that's new and the rest are quite old....not paying attention to having matching tires...etc. these things can adversely affect an AT much quicker than a MT. MT are certainly easier to rebuild and much cheaper if you happen to have a transmission fail on you. and there are no computers and almost no electronics to cause issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruLegacy2003 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 In the case of the 2003 Legacy Wagon, the Auto was rated @ 28mpg highway vs. 27 mpg for the Manual. I was surprised so I asked why. The dealer explained that this is due to the auto trans, when on dry ground acts more like a FWD vehicle because of the electronics, (90%-10% split) resulting in greater MPG. The manual is more of a 50-50 split all the time. I have been getting around 23mpg around town and 25-26mpg on the highway. I have an MT. As for snow, we have not had that much here (Southern NJ) in the last couple of years, a couple of 5-6" type of thing. Not a single problem getting where I need to go, I prefer a MT in the foul weather because I find it easier to control speed and use the engine for braking help. Although I'm sure the AT would get you where you need to go, this would come down to personal preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elwood91 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Since you are looking at an 2.5 XT most comparisons to previous transmissions DO NOT APPLY. The XT has a 5 speed auto stick or reinforced 5 speed manual. I think gas mileage is the same for both.The auto gives the ability to shift gears like tiptronic or "sport" mode which shifts up at higher rpm and shifts down sooner when accelerating, very nice for highway driving. The manual is "reinforced" I assume that means better gear set than previous versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradosubarules Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 A while ago there was a post on the off-topic board about how fast we have had our Subarus. I peronally have burried the needle on my 90 legacy wagon but there was a fellow that chimed in and said his 5MT equiped legacy wouldn't go that fast no matter how hard he pushed it. After he said that there were a few other people to say the same thing. It has something to do with the final gear ratio. I am almost 100% that Josh will back me up on this. I love going fast in the Roo, it's like driving a german luxury sedan on the autobahn. There is no noises, no vibrations, and it shifts lanes like it is on rails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattocs Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 A while ago there was a post on the off-topic board about how fast we have had our Subarus. I peronally have burried the needle on my 90 legacy wagon but there was a fellow that chimed in and said his 5MT equiped legacy wouldn't go that fast no matter how hard he pushed it. After he said that there were a few other people to say the same thing. It has something to do with the final gear ratio. I am almost 100% that Josh will back me up on this. I love going fast in the Roo, it's like driving a german luxury sedan on the autobahn. There is no noises, no vibrations, and it shifts lanes like it is on rails. But the manual would have better acceleration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coloradosubarules Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Yeah the 5MT's will smoke a 4EAT anyday. A friend of mine had a 94 and that thing was badass!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 To be quite honest, you really can't compare AT's to MT's. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Final drive ratio is different, AT's have torque multiplication, etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?p=224635&posted=1#post224635 238,000 miles on the original clutch, that's reassuring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elwood91 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Again original question was about new 5mt vs new 5eat sportshift in 2.5 XT or 5mt vs 4eat sportshift in base model 2.5i. The sportshift is nice for a lot of traffic while still fun and the awd is a little more complicated with computer controlled power distribution. I personally prefer the manual for hilly terrain where downshifting is smoother with a clutch than by autostick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 I wish I were in an economic position to be considering which transmission I should have in my 2.5 liter Legacy.... :-) I would go for the "Sportshift" and VDC equipped tranny. As it is, I would be lucky to convice a bank to lend me the money for a base 2.0 Legacy - and that would have to be manual, since the auto costs a whole bunch more over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 The automatic transmission model costs more but has MUCH better resale value. Lots of people these days can't, or won't drive a manual. Some even say that automatics cost less to own because you don't have to replace clutches. The Subaru automatics seem quite durable but so are the manuals. Once automatics lost weight and got locking top gears, the performance differences diminished. If you read some of the reviews of the turbo models, though, some mention a mismatch between the shifter logic and the boost curve of the engine. And driving a turbo smoothly with a manual isn't much easier. Subaru seems to have taken the engine substantially as tuned for the WRX, which is a little peaky. Most passenger car turbos use a smaller turbo that builds boost at lower rpms. Drive it plenty before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_eleven Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Sounds like it will come down to a test drive for the XT. The 5EAT with VTD sounds like the transmission I want; have driven sticks my whole life and although I love the control, in stop & go traffic, and snowy roads, I have become a convert to AT. But the only way to get this is to buy the turbo...:-( How reliable is this setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesbaru Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 When I was considering getting an 05, I got a little bugged by the "drive by wire" thing. I prefer MT anyway; but especially if I were to have no PHYSICAL connection to the throttle. Dang, I'd want to be able to take the engine off-line with the clutch if it started having a mind of it's own. (wasn't there a big problem with runaway Audi's when they started drive-by-wire?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johngenx Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 When I was considering getting an 05, I got a little bugged by the "drive by wire" thing. I prefer MT anyway; but especially if I were to have no PHYSICAL connection to the throttle. Dang, I'd want to be able to take the engine off-line with the clutch if it started having a mind of it's own. (wasn't there a big problem with runaway Audi's when they started drive-by-wire?) Runaway Audis had nothing to do with DBW. User malfunction. Mercedes has used drive-by-wire since roughly 1990, and since about 1997 on all it's models. It's quite reliable, provides excellent "feel" but if it breaks, it's VERY VERY expensive to fix. The little motor that moves the throttle is about $2000 on it's own. If you're concerned about expense, you might ask the parts dept. how much a new throttle actuator for a Forester is. BMW has used similar systems for many years as well, and on some models (M models with individual throttles) it can cost thousands and thousands of dollars to repair. The DBW systems in MB's and other makes have fail safe systems to make sure cars don't take off on their own, and as far as I know, no one has ever had the throttle "accelerate" on it's own. Failure always means that you can't drive, not that it drives "too much." The nice thing about DBW systems is that you can have the throttle system tied into the trans controller, cruise control, and other functions. On my Mercedes, the cruise control is incredibly accurate, can shift gears to help control speed (some systems do it withour DBW, but not with the same fine tuning) and the idle control is very accurate. After having owned three different Mercedes models with drive-by-wire (95 C36AMG, 98 E300TD and 98 C230) I haven't had any problems, but the slight benefits are probably not worth the added expense and complexity. With German cars, the V-8 and V-12 models fry their systems with regularity and it seems to be related to engine bay heat. My own gasoline four, diesel six and gasoline six had no failures, even in the high performance C36. The one thing about Japanese makes is they make much better electrical systems. German cars have tons of gadget problems. I would be more inclined to trust a DBW system made by Subaru than one made by MB, BMW, Audi or VW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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