Emissions Idle Failure-Help

[subpennyman]

Anyone know what the resistance should be on the MAF Connector- 3 pins B,C,D A is not used.

[royboy159]

No voltage on any of the 3 pins and wires going to the MAF (Motor running) Connector unplugged when measurements taken.

Hey Sub---If there aren't any harness continuity issues then you definitely have ECU failure. The voltages readings should be as follows:

[subpennyman]

Thanks a whole bunch Royboy!!! (What book did you dig that out of? )I'll be able to atleast take a MAF resistance reading in the morning before my wife drives down to McMinnville, OR at 9am for our sons homecoming football game! His last year there! Their team was top dogs last year!!

 

 

I would go but I am taking our 2 children on a Train ride around the Port of Tacoma Rail Yard. Its an annual thing that Tacomarail.com puts on as part of Our Maritime Fest! The Kids are sooo excited!

[Cougar]

It looks like Roy got the info out of factory service manual #2, which covers the engine for the most part.

 

Have fun on the trip and make some good memories for the kids. Hope the weather is good.

[subpennyman]

My wife went, not me to the Linfield Wildcats Football game -they Won 45-7!

 

I and the kids did a train ride here in Tacoma on Tacomarails annual openhouse, where I learned that Tacoma's Port is bigger in containers handled than Seattle's.

 

Before I went on train though- went to the junk yard and ohmed out another MAF Sensor- it's resistance is the same as mine! Pins AB 2.4 Meg, AC 2.5 Meg BC 3.96K.

 

By the way- the schematic is not for my car! Its pins are numbered, not lettered and chassis ground is used for part of the circuit! My 1993 Loyale does not use chassis ground and has only 3 active pins! There is a provision in both the Wiring connector and the MAF Sensor for a 4th pin, but it is not installed and never has been as far as I can tell!

 

so now it is on to the wiring or ECU. Atleast the junk yard car has an ECU for $75 if I need it!

 

But now what with my 3 wire system and the above schematics showing 4 wires?

 

Thanks for all your help folks!

 

Sub.

[Cougar]

Hopefully the pin numbers will be the same on the ECU for your car. If they aren't, maybe you can match the wire colors on each end.

[royboy159]

I think the wiring from the MAF goes directly to the ECU but I'm not sure. Spend the parts money on a good service manual for the car. This will save you more money and time in the long run.

Hey Sub----The right manual sure beats trying to adapt similar info.

If the wire colors do match at the ECU connector end and continuity is good then $75. should solve alot of problems.

Congrats on your son's football victory.

[subpennyman]

It's time for some good NEws!!! When resistance from MAF connector to ECU was not the same as junk yard sample-went searching for 3 wires from MAF to ECU at the ECU! Found 1 connector partially unplugged. Properly seated connector so that it locked and rechecked resistance from MAF to ECU. Had resistance between all 3 wires pins BCD;at junk yard only had resistance between 2 pins BC.

 

 

Immediately unplugged battery for 15 minutes to clear codes-restarted and let run for 2 minutes- NO LIGHTS!!! Motor did not want to stall out- in fact it idled purrrrr-fectly- with no small hiccups either!! YES! I am going to let my wife drive it tomorrow and I will check them again in the evening.

 

I suspect that connector was unplugged during my Dec-Jan 04-05 nightmare with the engine!

 

Thanks for you faithful help here!

[royboy159]

Hey Sub---That is great news!

I'd bet you can even do a D-mode check now (the greens connected).

I think Glen would agree that the simplest problem can present the most perplexing picture. Now we've become the "more knowledgeable" guys I mentioned in a previous post.

[Cougar]

Hurray! Good job. Your pesistance to fix this has paid off. I would be feelin' pretty good right now.

 

Roy, you are right! It can be the simplest things that can cause the most grief. I had a problem with the right front speaker in our new van once shortly after we purchased it. The service folks first ordered a new radio to try and fix it. That didn't work so they tried calling the factory for help over the phone and that didn't work. The service folks spent many hours trying to fix this problem. After coming home with the van and the still broken speaker I decided to look into the problem myself. After a short period of time looking things over I noticed a connector in the door jam. I pushed on it, and it clicked. Turned the radio on and the problem was solved. During this process I also found a couple of errors in the factory service manual that covered this area. They corrected the error in later updates after I made them aware of it. It's the simple things that get ya.

[subpennyman]

My wife said that the jerkyness that she had experienced at traffic lights was gone-and it still idled ok! So I told her to try emissions inspection again! She did-IT PASSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! And she then went and got new tabs for the Car and put those on. We are street Legal again!! That was yesterday-Friday 9/23/05! Whew!

 

( I had told her to make an appointment with a repair shop, too! She did so- it was going to cost $60-which would apply towards the $150 parts and labor waiver limit to be exempt from emissions. The appointment was for 2 Thursday ago-when I woke up on the appointment morning, I told her to cancel the appt. I am so glad-saved $60 atleast and feel a lot more confident.)

 

Today, Saturday, drove her and the 2 youngins to SEATAC Airport for a 3 week Hawaiian all expenses paid babysitting opportunity. So I put about 60 miles of freeway driving on the car-and it will be available to work on for 3 weeks. I will plug the 2 white connectors in tomorrow and read the codes as well as try the Green plugs.

 

Have 2 issues left. Starter will not rotate at times- just clicks when the key is turned! It happened to me this morning(getting ready to leave for the airport)! It was kind of cool out-upper 40's to 50's-I guess. Turned the key to start- just a click-like the solenoid engageing! Had to rotate the key about 20- 30 times before the starter finally spun and lit off the engine.

 

The other issue: wife smells raw gasoline sometimes when she comes to a stop. Says its very faint and goes away pretty quickly. It's also an intermittent thing! Gosh- I just love those intermittent faults! UGH!!!

 

Thanks again, you fine people!

 

Sub.

[Cougar]

Your welcome for the help Sub. Glad your are up and running.

 

First thing to do about the starter is clean the battery connections if that hasn't been done already. The starter problem could also be due to bad contacts in the solenoid. You should be able to buy new contacts for around 10 dollars. If the contacts aren't the problem it may be due to internal corrosion in the main battery lead.

[subpennyman]

Cougar thanks for the tip on internal corrosion-don't think I would have thunk of that one! Yes-Bat terminals already cleaned! I think I will vote on the Bad contacts. Are those available through a regular auto parts store or will I have better success at a starter rebuild shop?

 

 

Anyway, codes read 11 and 34 Ugh!

 

88 and later models with Single-Point Fuel Injection

11Crank angle sensor or circuit

12Starter switch or circuit

13Crank angle sensor or circuit

14Fuel injector - abnormal output

21Coolant temperature or circuit

23Air flow meter or circuit

24Air control valve or circuit

31Throttle sensor or circuit

32Oxygen sensor or circuit

33Vehicle Speed Sensor or circuit

34EGR solenoid or circuit

35Purge control solenoid or circuit

42Idle switch or circuit

45Kick-down control relay or circuit

51Neutral switch continuously in the on position

55EGR temperature sensor or circuit

61Parking switch or circuit

 

 

Went to start the car on this somewhat warm fall day-OAT is mid 60's. Turned the key (with the clutch depressed) and nothing! Idiot lights were on the dash-but no starter action at all! Decided to just hold the key in the start position and press the clutch in and out till the car started.

 

By doing this, I found that the pedal needs to be all the way to the floor ( I think something needs adjustment) but I was able to get a click from the starter solenoid. It took about 5 cycles before I received starter motor rotation!

 

Unplugged the white connector and plugged in the Green- and it stayed running-wow! (before I found and reconnected the ECU connector, the car would just die)!

 

Sub.

[royboy159]

Hey Sub----Smells of gas can eminate from almost anywhere. Try bringing the car to a quick stop at your house and then follow your nose.

If the codes came from a properly executed D-mode check then I'd consider the components as failing and plan for their future replacement. Though I'd run D-mode again after the starting problem is solved before replacing anything.

For review:

1. After engine's all warmed up, turn it off.

2. Connect D-mode connectors (green).

3. Start engine and note trouble codes on LED of ECU. There should be

none if codes were cleared.

4. Drive car for approximately 1 minute with engine RPMs around 2000.

5. Then check LED for stored trouble codes.

6. Turn off engine. Disconnect connectors.

roy

[DaveT]

 

Have 2 issues left. Starter will not rotate at times- just clicks when the key is turned! It happened to me this morning(getting ready to leave for the airport)! It was kind of cool out-upper 40's to 50's-I guess. Turned the key to start- just a click-like the solenoid engageing! Had to rotate the key about 20- 30 times before the starter finally spun and lit off the engine.

 

I have had this problem at various times with my cars. One of the contacts in the solinoid burns away faster than the other. It is just a small thick piece of copper in the shape of an "L". I make my own and replace it. One time i found an intermittant in one of the connectors in the wiring harness - htere are a few of them. I have an LED (with a resistor) and wires that I use to find intermittants like that. One end to GND, the other end slips into the back of the connector to test. Tape the LED top the dash. Just watch it when you turn the key. Light & no starter, move it to the next connector. During the hunt for that one, I also made up a switch with a clip on one end and connector for the starter on the other. A few times I had to use it to get home.

 

Dave

[subpennyman]

DaveT......... EXCELLANT CALL!!!!!!! Yanked the starter today and yes the 2 Copper "L" brackets that conduct the Current through the solenoid contact ring are Very Very Worn. I am going to replace them both- but where to come up with some copper flat stock .104 thick x .636 wide x 1.1" with a 90 bend in the middle- it might even be 1.3 or 1.4 when the bend is factored in!

 

Any thoughts? I dont think my local Home Depot or Lowes is going to carry Copper Bar Flat stock- Maybe I should call, Huh?

[DaveT]

I dont think my local Home Depot or Lowes is going to carry Copper Bar Flat stock- Maybe I should call, Huh?

 

Forget home depot. I can't think of anything they sell that would have a piece like that in it. Actually, I have a scrapped buss bar from a $4,000.00 Mark Levinson amplifier that I have been making them from. But here are some real ideas:

 

Scrap yards that specialize in the more valuable metals, Copper, brass aluminium, etc.

 

Metal suppliers - look in the yellow pages under metals or copper.

 

This place might work:

http://www.metalexpress.net/cgi-bin/index.pl?mod=catalog&ac=acDisProdList&material=Copper&form=Flat&cat=110%20%28etp%29&min=0&max=0&sid=0267e9af91bfcf535ba5e663e8c6f15d

 

Anything 1/8" thick will work. Cut it to width, bend it, cut the ends to match length. Clamp the original "back to back" to locate holes and drill.

 

Dave

[subpennyman]

DaveT- so right again! Home Depot and Lowes are useless for manufacture/do it yourselfers! Thanks for the hints and link- I will explore some of those options as well as try to buy the individual Copper Contacts through an Auto Electric Supplier. There are a lot of shops that rebuild starters/alternators around here- Tacoma, WA. I do not have a lot of time to do extensive shopping. Did you chuck your bar stock up in a vise? Did you excite the electrons in the bar by applying heat- or just bend it at room temp?

 

(By the way- I had a drawing image that I wanted to put in this message- any clue how? I do see the image icon above and a new window opens for inserting the URL. It places the URL in the text area- but I want the image, not the URL.)

 

Wow- I just tried that link! Its super!!! 14.17 incl. freight for a 3" 1/8 x 3/4!

 

So now the price to beat is that- plus the time it takes to drill,cut and bend the raw material!

[edrach]

Sorry, I just hopped in here at the end. You're in Tacoma; why not just go over to the Pull a Part yard (off the Steele St. exit of SR512), and pull a starter motor off a wreck? It would likely be under $20 and if it doesn't work for you, it's returnable (with receipt) within 30 days or you can exhange it for another.

[subpennyman]

edach--Thanks, that is something I had not considered! But my problem is time to go and do that! I'll think about it.... But in the meantime...............LOOK what I found! http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/Nippondenso.html for the record my starter is a Nippondenso 128000-1220.

 

 

Nippondenso starters are

used on a variety of

vehicles and equipment.

They are the largest

manufacturer of starters

and alternators in the

world. When these

starters fail it is almost

always a problem with

worn out solenoid

contacts. The common

symptom is a click- click-

click and then it will start.

Replacement units are

usually higher priced

than most because of the

superior design. Repair is

easy with the right parts

and very profitable

because of the cost of a

new or rebuilt unit. Call

Adam if you have any

questions about repair or

application.

[Cougar]

This is a very good find Subpennyman. This should be archived for future users to use.

[subpennyman]

Would you take care of that archiving stuff? I am goint to call the company tomorrow am and see what just the 2 contacts alone would cost. I will post the results.

[DaveT]

Did you chuck your bar stock up in a vise? Did you excite the electrons in the bar by applying heat- or just bend it at room temp?

 

(By the way- I had a drawing image that I wanted to put in this message- any clue how? I do see the image icon above and a new window opens for inserting the URL. It places the URL in the text area- but I want the image, not the URL.)

 

Wow- I just tried that link! Its super!!! 14.17 incl. freight for a 3" 1/8 x 3/4!

 

So now the price to beat is that- plus the time it takes to drill,cut and bend the raw material!

 

Heating depends on the copper - soft copper, just bend it. Hard copper, heat it red, let it cool to room temp in air, don't quench it. It will be soft then, and need to be cleaned.

 

I have not done the link thing here yet, but if it works like my web pages,

you do this:

"<IMG SRC="http://www.yourpictureurl/yourpicture.jpg">"

 

( remove the stuff outside of the <> characters)

(inside the <> replace &quot with the double quote mark - shift single quote)

 

The reason for NOT using a used starter from another car is that

it is most likly in similar state of wear (or getting there) and

you will need to do it also.

 

Dave

[subpennyman]

I bought all new parts Tuesday, installed them- and things work great- on the bench! Total cost- under $22.

 

I first went here http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/Nippondenso.html and found the parts that I thought I needed and called the company.

 

It was going to be a $29 adventure to buy from Nations, but I needed information and the call was worth it (free) he told me that I should use a heavier duty Solenoid Contact (more surface area and that I should change the Plunger too (cheap insurance).

 

I then went to my local yellow pages and found a supplier locally RE Autoelectric

http://www.densoheavyduty.com/results_dist.php who had the parts-after giving them the part #'s obtained from my call to nationsautoelectric, they wanted to know why I was using the #'s that I had given them- I had also given them the starter P/N. Turns out they didn't sell too many of the contacts for the starter P/N that I had given them! But I bought them anyway based on Nations advice! They fit, there is more contact surface area-and they work! They cost about 30 cents more than original replacements- but I should get more start miles out of these! I got 160,000 out of the factory originals- way more than the average life span-according to Nations.

 

My cost? 66-82600 Plunger assy 1 ea list $24.50 net $ 14.95

66-82758 Contact, Sol. 2 ea list $2.98 net 2.38

Tax 1.73

Total $ 21.44

 

You might want to try this website and find a supplier close to where you live or you can call my Tacoma RE Autoelectric- they ship all over.

 

http://www.densoheavyduty.com/index.php

 

Plan on installing the starter this Saturday. Sub.

[subpennyman]

EGR Solenoid Fault code follow up: replaced defective Solenoid Valve (open coil) . Verified EGR Valve Operation by sucking on hose connected to Valve and heard valve operate- and that no leaks existed. Also verified hose integrity from Solenoid Valve to Fuel Injector Body Throat and open passage to throat.

 

It appears there isn't any vaccuum getting to the solenoid valve from the Throat of the Injector Body. Everything else appears to be good- don't know where to go from here.

 

Also, new problem surfaced- windshield wiper motor only works at 1 speed - slow. 2 wires entering motor proper each have12vdc (w/respect to Gnd) in normal switch setting as well as high. Ground wires appears intact.

Sub 10/30/05