MorganM Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 ha..ha...ha. 99% of my other charts are still over on inkfrog or elsewhere on the WRS site....im in the process of moving them tho. Cool; hook up a link to them when you do. I love looking at perdy charts Thanks !_! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ru_ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Well I have a 1988 GL-10 Turbo. I have swapped out the stock GL-10 computer to an 88 RX computer. There was no noticable change. As for intake, I ran the stock intake for a while on my car, then removed the stock Cast Eblow that goes into the throttle body and installed and intercooler off of an MX-6. I actually seen a loss in power in doing that. Next I removed the stock air box and fitted a cone filter right on to the mass air filter (not forgetting the straw mod for the air meter) got all the power back and then some. I next changed the intercooler to a slightly more "free flowing" one along with Much better pipeing (WRX intercooler). Made more of a difference on the plus side. If I'd have to guess, the intercooler alone probably added 10 hp worth of air flow. Next came a new TD04 Turbo....that in it's self added probably another 15 at least. What I am trying to say is...you can't modd something all at the same time and be sure that all the crap you did is actually helping. Not trying to sound crass or anything but the ONLY real way you can tell if a modd is actually helping is to do one at a time and dyno the car. Eg...that MX-6 intercooler was crap!!! the piping was Crap and I didn't really notice till I seen how a STOCK turbo car rev'ed to red soo much easier....I was restricting the flow too much. So cause your car is modded all to hell, doesn't mean it's actually making power. You also have to take into account the amout of pipe between the turbo and intake on a stock car, compared to lets say something modded. The MX-6 intercooler had about 4 feet (guessing) of pipe, from turbo to intake....and now the WRX one was about 2 feet of piping...bit bigger in diameter, and a little better on the bends. Where compare that on how easy it is for a turbo to blow the air through that little cast piece 6" into the intake. Also, I am not 100% sure about this, but I think anything 88 and newer is Density controlled turbo....meaning it will turn up boost under hotter conditions (thusly hotter boost air) in an effort to keep power up. I have seen my bone stock gl-10 climb past 13 psi when you load it up in 5th on the highway and hold it there. As soon as I installed an intercooler....never moved past 7....I bet if you put a 4psi wastegate actuator on, it'll run 4psi in the cold weather....then the boost controller will bring it up when it gets warmer outside. Honestly, I don't think an intercooler helps power all that much when your running close to stock boost. The turbo just isn't blowing the air hot enough to make that much of a difference. I think under long term boost,the intercooler helps, but straight out of the hole, probably not much of a difference. Also, keep in mind, 40 hp gain is a little better than 30% more power....that's a pretty good jump for a 2500 pound car. I was running 7 psi,on the stock boost controller, just recently went to 12 and it moves good.I am shooting for 20, but running into head gasket issues. anyone know where to find bi-metals? How is your car set-up? send me a pic if ya like....I'll try and get a shot of my under hood....maybe something will trigger an inspiration! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 So far no one makes a multi layer metal HG....but gasket works USA make copper. Problem is TQ'ing them down properly with the stock bolts....hence why I am waiting for ARP to come back with something... I have a JDM spec Toyota Celica ST-165 Air/Water IC setup...no hp but 30tq gain at the wheels on the dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I own a 1988 RX turbo and it has been dyno'd on an AWD dyno. Unless my ECU is 'bad', it does not make the same numbers as this high strung 'stock' on that Will posted about. So the 1988 ECU thing can be tossed to the wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 I ahve been informed about different 'break in porcedures'..... that and I have found various charts for cars that are high mileage that make alot more power than 'stock' yet are indeed....STOCK. Something is up...and my car doesnt have that up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 There is something else I'd like to point out. The stock RX does not make power beyond 5800rpm or so. Remember the severe drop in power/torque just before 6000rpm with the stock header and exhaust piping on a couple people's cars? How can this car run all the way up to 6500rpm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 ...no hp but 30tq gain at the wheels on the dyno. Isn't that inclined to suggest that the IC is creating too much of a pressure drop at high rpm? Since power is just the product of torque and rotational speed, if the power stayed the same and torque increased, the revs at which max torque occurs has dropped. Not what you want? You should try a legacy air/water ic..... The difference in the high end (power above 5800) could simply be caused by the engine being more/less worn than others, ie worn/good cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myxalplyx Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Another question: Why is the 1st and 2nd run 10hp or so more than the 3rd run? Skrange! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ru_ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 About the head gaskets I know about the coppers and the problems with torquing. I was going to go with head studs, till I found out that the 11mm thread size is common to these types of engines only (ea82) and it'd probably be about 700 bucks to get some specially made. SOOO I have the wicked idea to drill and tap to 12mm and get studs for that. Probably a little easier to come by, and the fact that the bolt holes go pretty deep into the block will probably be ok. Seeing as once they are in they won't be comming back out, so I am not too worried about Crappy thread cutting, keeping in mind I am not going to rush the cutting of new threads. As for the rev-ing thing, ya there is some restriction in the intake. With the new WRX intercooler I have no problems getting them valves to float....it's actually a neat sound....lol I bet people cringe when they hear it, just waiting to see the valves come out the tail pipe. I am running 92 loyale NA cams. They are pretty agressive, but one certain car came with the next better cam for rev-ing. I can't remember which car... *ahem* I used to be able to rev the N/A loyale up to 7500 no problems, where the valves started to float....and to be quite frank, have never ran into bottom end problems YET cause of it.The loyale SPFI engine was retired when I converted the car to turbo. The Gl-10 doesn't rev much past 6750 besacuse the engine has like 350,000 km's on it and I am willing to bet the valve springs are pretty weak. New block commin my way! Needing SOMETHING for head gaskets so I can get this thing back together! Definately not going back to stocker head gaskets....I am getting sick of changing those....mind you people tell me nice new flat surface and stock gaskets SHOULD be ok, but I am not going to risk it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 There is something else I'd like to point out. The stock RX does not make power beyond 5800rpm or so. Remember the severe drop in power/torque just before 6000rpm with the stock header and exhaust piping on a couple people's cars? How can this car run all the way up to 6500rpm? Yeah...i know of the drop. There are only two stockers ive driven that didnt drop off and pulled past 6500....JWX's new one and my 89 that JWX now has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 Isn't that inclined to suggest that the IC is creating too much of a pressure drop at high rpm? Since power is just the product of torque and rotational speed, if the power stayed the same and torque increased, the revs at which max torque occurs has dropped. Not what you want?You should try a legacy air/water ic..... The difference in the high end (power above 5800) could simply be caused by the engine being more/less worn than others, ie worn/good cams. No drop...before and after IC...still pushing 7 PSI into the intake manifold. I used an STI TMIC with the same results....WRX TMIC with same results...I imagine the Legacy AWIC would produce same results. Good point on the engine wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 Another question: Why is the 1st and 2nd run 10hp or so more than the 3rd run? Skrange! actually the 1st run was less...it was stll warming up. All of the other 8 runs or so were exactly the same as the 2nd and 3rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 About the head gaskets I know about the coppers and the problems with torquing. I was going to go with head studs, till I found out that the 11mm thread size is common to these types of engines only (ea82) and it'd probably be about 700 bucks to get some specially made. SOOO I have the wicked idea to drill and tap to 12mm and get studs for that. Probably a little easier to come by, and the fact that the bolt holes go pretty deep into the block will probably be ok. Seeing as once they are in they won't be comming back out, so I am not too worried about Crappy thread cutting, keeping in mind I am not going to rush the cutting of new threads. As for the rev-ing thing, ya there is some restriction in the intake. With the new WRX intercooler I have no problems getting them valves to float....it's actually a neat sound....lol I bet people cringe when they hear it, just waiting to see the valves come out the tail pipe. I am running 92 loyale NA cams. They are pretty agressive, but one certain car came with the next better cam for rev-ing. I can't remember which car... *ahem* I used to be able to rev the N/A loyale up to 7500 no problems, where the valves started to float....and to be quite frank, have never ran into bottom end problems YET cause of it.The loyale SPFI engine was retired when I converted the car to turbo. The Gl-10 doesn't rev much past 6750 besacuse the engine has like 350,000 km's on it and I am willing to bet the valve springs are pretty weak. New block commin my way! Needing SOMETHING for head gaskets so I can get this thing back together! Definately not going back to stocker head gaskets....I am getting sick of changing those....mind you people tell me nice new flat surface and stock gaskets SHOULD be ok, but I am not going to risk it. *buzzer* Wrong....the EVO's 4g63 and ALL of the EJ's have the same thread pitch...I know cuz I tried the bolts/sutd sets in the EA and all other combos....its just a matter of finding a stud that is *NEAR* the correct length for the long bolts and then using them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ru_ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 *buzzer* Wrong....the EVO's 4g63 and ALL of the EJ's have the same thread pitch...I know cuz I tried the bolts/sutd sets in the EA and all other combos....its just a matter of finding a stud that is *NEAR* the correct length for the long bolts and then using them. Is that so? well I guess my supplier of info was a little off. That being said, here is another question....Any ideas on how reliable nuts compared to actual bolts holding down heads are. Meaning a bolt has what...2 or 3 inches of thread to bite on, where as you have about 1/2" of thread on a nut...I'd assume that the 20 or 30 threads on the end of the bolt would hold a little better, even in aluminum, than the 6-8 threads in a nut...Any Ideas?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do It Sidewayz Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Is that so? well I guess my supplier of info was a little off. That being said, here is another question....Any ideas on how reliable nuts compared to actual bolts holding down heads are. Meaning a bolt has what...2 or 3 inches of thread to bite on, where as you have about 1/2" of thread on a nut...I'd assume that the 20 or 30 threads on the end of the bolt would hold a little better, even in aluminum, than the 6-8 threads in a nut...Any Ideas?? Adam you know dam well i'm not a Mitsu guy! The problem with head BOLTS is the stretch of the bolt. Nuts won't stretch. Plus you know well enough that when a bolt snaps it either snaps just below the head, or where there is a diameter change (start of the threads)...any physics book will tell you this... With the studs you don't have that problem, and you get consistant torque everytime, and can actually apply more torque. Plus...there's nothing to say then when they make studs they can't use a different pitch, which would allow more threads to bite. Even then...once you get past 5 threads it doesn't much matter if you are using 20 threads, or 5 threads. Think of it this way...you install wheel nuts every day of the week. they go on what? 5 turns?? and get what? 75 ft-lbs or more?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ru_ Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Adam you know dam well i'm not a Mitsu guy! The problem with head BOLTS is the stretch of the bolt. Nuts won't stretch. Plus you know well enough that when a bolt snaps it either snaps just below the head, or where there is a diameter change (start of the threads)...any physics book will tell you this... With the studs you don't have that problem, and you get consistant torque everytime, and can actually apply more torque. Plus...there's nothing to say then when they make studs they can't use a different pitch, which would allow more threads to bite. Even then...once you get past 5 threads it doesn't much matter if you are using 20 threads, or 5 threads. Think of it this way...you install wheel nuts every day of the week. they go on what? 5 turns?? and get what? 75 ft-lbs or more?? THis is true...don't get yer pee all hot now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Is that so? well I guess my supplier of info was a little off. That being said, here is another question....Any ideas on how reliable nuts compared to actual bolts holding down heads are. Meaning a bolt has what...2 or 3 inches of thread to bite on, where as you have about 1/2" of thread on a nut...I'd assume that the 20 or 30 threads on the end of the bolt would hold a little better, even in aluminum, than the 6-8 threads in a nut...Any Ideas?? I TQ down EVO heads with the ARP's at 95 ft-lbs. They are rated for well over that....when I get coppers, I will TQ to 120~140. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ru_ Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 holly crap?!? you torque it that much? I don't think tighter is always better...maybe for coppers or something, but on stock gaskets? I think subaru recommends 47 ft.lbs on stock gaskets....I dunno I am just a stupid kid, I don't know nothing Never mind....I though you were talking about subaru..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iluvdrt Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Has anyone ever tore down a USDM EA82T vs a JDM ea82T? My reason is, is before my ecm took a poo, my JDM engine pulled harder, and way higher(all the way to 8000 rpms), where as the USDM version pulled only to about 6300. Also, the "rump roast dyno" said the JDM version was making wayyy more power. I am wondering if the injector size, and cam profiles are different from one another. I know my JDM engine had black injectors, and I think my USDM engine had blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 the 88 that JWX has would probly pull all the way to 8....I know my 89 did. As for SUBARU TQ'in... the FACTORY specs for EJxxx engines i think the actual final TQ is somewhere around 130~170 ft-lbs.....not sure tho. The final 90* and 45* step as per service manual...it takes one person holding the engine stand w/everything they've got, and me with a 3ft breaker bar laying into it pretty hard to get it to that final step. As for EA82 final....I used to go to the 4x ft lb....but I always take them to 65 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWX Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 let me get some known good gas in it, with some clean injectors, and when it isn't throwing oil all over the dyno area. we'll take it to 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 let me get some known good gas in it, with some clean injectors, and when it isn't throwing oil all over the dyno area. we'll take it to 8 Clean injectors? No oil leaks? This is not the Subaru way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWX Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 lol I know right. but I just don't want it to oil down the dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 lol I know right. but I just don't want it to oil down the dyno. you already did that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWX Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 agian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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