Roamer Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 My water pump went about 2 months ago on my 96 LSI wagon, had it towed into the shop and they replaced the pump,timing belt and radiator (radiator cracked from over heating). All was well until a few weeks ago when I was driving on the highway and I noticed the temp needle going above the middle mark. So then I took it in the shop again and told them that the water pump must be bad, the mechanic could not duplicate the problem, and attributed the overheating to air in the system and supposedly said that he aired it out. All was good for a month. Tonight, I was driving and the same thing happened the needle started to rise, I turned the heat on and it subsided. So then when I was a few blocks from home I tried to duplicate the problem by driving the car hard with the heat off, it started to over heat. So then I pulled into my driveway and checked for bubbles in the over flow tank found none. As a matter of fact the coolant level in my overflow tank never changes, so I am assuming that it is not the head gasket issue, but then again I am having my doubts now. Anyways while my car was parked in the driveway and I reved the engine the temp needle went back to normal. I could not get it to overheat again while it was parked and constantly keeping the rpms high. So I am wondering why it would over heat only while the car is in motion and having soo much air blown into the engine? Any thoughts? Also I am in NYC and it is winter time right now so for the car to over heat in such weather means nothing but trouble when summer arrives. I am just so perplexed and pissed off right now any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickensheets Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 The thermostat may be failing to open all the way. When you are driving there is a load (more fuel burned, more heat) than when you are parked and just revving. Try a new thermostat and report back. Also visually inspect the radiator hoses for flat or collapsed sections. Also check to make sure that your radiator fans are coming on when it gets hot like that. I agree that those wx conditions are a bit cool for this type of problem but you need to eliminate the small stuff. rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Also did they use OEM parts? I have had issues with crap aftermarket water pumps before, that have been bad out of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
color-blind Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Hate to break it to you, still sounds like head gaskets. When the head gaskets start to go you can burp the air out of them. Usually lasts a week to a few months. Get ready to pull the engine for head gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I'm glad CB told you not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamer Posted January 16, 2006 Author Share Posted January 16, 2006 Hate to break it to you, still sounds like head gaskets. When the head gaskets start to go you can burp the air out of them. Usually lasts a week to a few months. Get ready to pull the engine for head gaskets. I am beginning to think that as well after reading some old posts regarding the issue. Well I don't care what the problem is as long as it can be fixed. I also read from previous posts that the engine does not have to be pulled for a head gasket job. Is this true or simply hearsay? Also does anyone know of a mechanic in the NYC that has done a subaru HG job for them, that they can recommend me to. Lastly has subaru ever been sued regarding this crappy products defect, not that I am a sue happy person but it just seems so unfair to me that Subaru never addressed this issue with a recall. Who here will be on board with me if I can initiate a class action suit against Subaru? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 The best you can do is file a complaint with the NHTSA. It will be hard as its not a saftey deffect, and its not a emissions defect (the leak is so small it doesnt affect emissions). The defect affects less then 15% of the combined years totals, and most are already fixed. you can also try to contact the Federal trade commission. Also on a ten year old car they are going to tell you you got your moneys worth out of gasket. Subaru addressed this issue through an engineering change, and in all honesty, ist the same way any automaker addresses this kind of issue, be it Ford, GM (notorous for it) Chrysler, or any other manufacturer that has a "weakness" in its design. i personally think the car is a great product, and far from crappy. Also once you get past 100K miles or 10 years old, any car can blow a headgasket at any time, and it may not be the manufacturers fault. Old hondas would blow head gaskets at over 150K like clockwork (read the old civic boards) but no one complained. they just wrote it off to age. Personally if a HG blows past 100K i would write it off to age if it was any other car, i think the only reason we get so excited about it is because of the cost issue. Personally i would take a subaru 4cyl over any american 4cyl engine of the same age and mileage. Given enough time most aluminum engines at some time in thier lives will blow a head gasket. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 The best you can do is file a complaint with the NHTSA. It will be hard as its not a saftey deffect, and its not a emissions defect (the leak is so small it doesnt affect emissions). The defect affects less then 15% of the combined years totals, and most are already fixed. you can also try to contact the Federal trade commission. Also on a ten year old car they are going to tell you you got your moneys worth out of gasket.Subaru addressed this issue through an engineering change, and in all honesty, ist the same way any automaker addresses this kind of issue, be it Ford, GM (notorous for it) Chrysler, or any other manufacturer that has a "weakness" in its design. i personally think the car is a great product, and far from crappy. Also once you get past 100K miles or 10 years old, any car can blow a headgasket at any time, and it may not be the manufacturers fault. Old hondas would blow head gaskets at over 150K like clockwork (read the old civic boards) but no one complained. they just wrote it off to age. Personally if a HG blows past 100K i would write it off to age if it was any other car, i think the only reason we get so excited about it is because of the cost issue. Personally i would take a subaru 4cyl over any american 4cyl engine of the same age and mileage. Given enough time most aluminum engines at some time in thier lives will blow a head gasket. nipper Great point, it seams to me that you only hear the negative here on the board. I have several friends who are over 150k on 2.5 with orginal HG. No one wants to think that Honda or Toytoa has HG issues but if you search you will see they have issues also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
color-blind Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 You are correct you can leave the engine in to replace the head gaskets. Yet that is the incorrect way to do it. The reasons for removing the engine are the following-more access to adjust the valves, replace seperator plate, o-ring and rear crankshaft oil seal. If the vehicle is a 5-spd inspect and replace clutch if necessary. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloDave Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Yep, sounds like the exact same problem I now have on my 97' Legacy outback limited wagon. I originally took it to the dealer in November, 2005 for a new water pump. About a month later I had those weird temp fluctuations in my car too. I had just driven about 90 miles away and everything was great. I parked the car for about 2 hours and when I came back it started overheating right away. The thing was pegged into the Hot zone, but I couldn't get any warm air out of the heater. I stayed over night at a friends house and pondered how I was going to get an over heating car a 100 miles back home. The next morning I added about a quart of water to the radiator and the engine seemed to be cooling okay so I drove it back home. It stayed in the mid cool to hot zone all the way home until I got off the highway, when it started to get hot again. As long as I drove 45 mph or more it stayed cool, or if I dropped it into 2nd the higher rpms seemed to cool it off too. I took it immediately to the dealer and they suspected air in the coolant from when they changed the water pump. Now I told them specifically that I had just added a quart or more of water to the radiator, so they should have known that it may be more than just air from before, and that there was a leak occuring somewhere. Well they didn't figure it out. All they did was "burp" the air out of the coolant and give me back the car. Now here's where fun starts. Saturday night I drove 45 miles to New Haven CT. This was about 3 weeks from when they burped the car. Everything seemed fine on the way there, and upon driving home it was working okay on the parkway. Unfortunately we got hit by an ice storm and the highway patrol pulled everyone off the Merritt Parkway while they cleared the trees. Meanwhile the storm was worsening and snow was falling in blizzard conditions. I thought, "no problem, I have a Subaru, I can get home through any snow storm, just get the trees off the road." Then I looked at my temp gauge and saw that it was pegged into H again! It's 1:30 AM in a howling, freezing snow storm and I am pulled off the road, parked alongside 15 other cars in a Park n Ride parking lot and I am freezing my rump roast off in a car that is overheating!! I get the state trooper to call in a tow, but it isn't going to get there until about 4 AM. At 2:30 AM they clear the trees and people start following a plow going 20 mph on the parkway towards home. I am about the only left in the parking lot in a blizzard, and I am wondering if I am going to freeze to death in this piece-o-crap Subaru, that if I survive in, I am ready to spray paint yellow, stencil the word "LEMON" on it and park it in front of the dealer. I turn the engine on one more time and pray to god, Jehovah, Vishnu, Wankantankan, you name it, that the damn thing starts blowing some hot air out of the defroster so I can see... it does! I chance making the drive home. I get on the parkway and as long as I drive over 45 mph it stays cool. The parkway, even though it was just plowed 15 minutes ago, is a blanket of white. I couldn't tell which lane I was in but I was heading home. Right before my exit I caught up to the plow and had to slow down so of course it started pegging into high again until I down shifted into 2nd. I just dropped the car off at the dealer yesterday and I am expecting an outrageous estimate, well over $2,500 to replace a head gasket this morning. I am tired of throwing good money after bad and disagree heartily with whoever said "Toyotas and Hondas blow gaskets too." My car only has 120k miles on it and I have had Toyotas and Hondas with more miles then that, that never blew a gasket. This is a design flaw that Subaru refuses to own up too. My research from this site has proven to me that these type engines are just ticking time bombs that Subaru refuses to own up to. Here is a site you can go to and sign a quest book registering your complaint on this exact issue. It is being down to I believe bolster a much needed class action suit and to stop Subaru from lying when they repeatedly say; "Oh, ahhh, err, we've never had any problems with head gaskets before." Which is what the lying *astards have been telling everyone to date. http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/guestlog.html http://home.comcast.net/cgi-bin/MFEntry?owner=skipnospam Sorry if I've gotten a little emotional here, but almost freezing to death in a vehicle that everyone touts as a "great snow car." has left me a little pissed. My only question to you all out there in Subaru Cyberland is; should I bother fixing this thing, or is it time to sell it, dump it, or trade it in for something better? If I fix the HG I now am seeing that there may also be some kind of bottom seals or something that can go next. I know most of you are biased and pro-Subaru or you probably wouldn't be on this site, but I feel like I am just throwing good money after bad and that Subaru's reputation is like the emperors new clothes... all talk and no substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Dave, Sorry to hear about your experience. If it were my car I would probably fix it and sell it because by now (putting myself in your shoes) it would have made me mad. The phase 1 engine was not Subaru's best work I think we all know. It's also going to take them along time to repair the damage to thier rep from this episode, and that's not good as the competion has discovered Subaru's niche. If the rest of the car is great it might be worth keeping it after fixing, but only you know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I just dropped the car off at the dealer yesterday and I am expecting an outrageous estimate, well over $2,500 to replace a head gasket this morning. I am tired of throwing good money after bad and disagree heartily with whoever said "Toyotas and Hondas blow gaskets too." My car only has 120k miles on it and I have had Toyotas and Hondas with more miles then that, that never blew a gasket..... This is not a very scientific approach, well I too have a 10 Subaru's that never blew any HG but both my Toyota and Honda did. All aluminum engines at some point will blow HG. Like other post have stated Honda's are notorious for going at 150k, and Toyota 3.0 had national recall and the replacement 3.4 are now have HG issues also. My only question to you all out there in Subaru Cyberland is; should I bother fixing this thing, or is it time to sell it, dump it, or trade it in for something better? If I fix the HG I now am seeing that there may also be some kind of bottom seals or something that can go next. I know most of you are biased and pro-Subaru or you probably wouldn't be on this site, but I feel like I am just throwing good money after bad and that Subaru's reputation is like the emperors new clothes... all talk and no substance. What I would recommend is finding a good independent Subaru shop, they will do the HG for $1200 dollars and you will have a car that will go another 100k with out major issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Head gaskets have been a weak point for a long time. In the 70s I was changing them on Datsuns and Mazdas, then Chevy had a bad run. Recently I have run into Toyota, Ford, and Hondas. Time to epoxy those suckers on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 i have a 97obw aith 182K on the original headgasket. if it blew tomorrow i would blame old age, nit the car. My civic blew a Hg at 156K, none of my subarus ever blew a HG and all went over 200k. Part of it is that no one held onto cars long enough to get into the milage where HG failure is likely to happen. we used to walk away from cars with 100K miles on them. Now its not uncomon to have cars last 200K, so more and more times we get into the max life of the head gasket. Remeber you have two dissimlar metals creating a seal. the HG ic copper (or something similar) between two peices of aluminum. There are differnt expansion rates and other proerties for these materials, and after 100K miles, thats alot of stress. Any part that can hold its function for that long in my mind is not junk. And we all know that as a car gets older, we have more expensive repairs that happen. In the 50's and 60's it was typical for a engine to not last longer then 80K miles without a rebuild (i am not making a blanket statment so im sure there is somone that had one that lasted longer.. always is). This same engines now last for ever due to better fuels and oils. Nothing lasts for ever. if i had a 10yo refirgerator die on me, i wouldnt be jumping up and down screaming that the appliance is junk. Why do people do the same thing with a car that has over 100, 000 miles on it then complain the product is junk cause it needs a major repair. what about all those other trouble free miles before then? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Most of the gaskets I changed in the 70s on Datsuns and Mazdas were about 60-80 thousand miles. By that standard these aren't too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloDave Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Wait a minute. Back in the day you could buy a used car with 90K on it for a couple of hundred bucks because, like you said, they were expected to die after 100k or so. These days used cars go for thousands of dollars and it isn't just because of inflation. It is because the myth states that certain cars are of better quality and will run for 200k miles with just minor repairs. That's why when something major goes out on it even at 120k it starts to look like more of a rip off. I just spent $1,300 on repairs for this piece of crap in November. Now they want another $1,800. What's it going to be next month? Also a 10 year old refrigerator won't kill you for trusting it with your life on a snowy highway. If Subaru can't live up to its reputation it is up to the jaded, exploited masses to lower their reputation for them, and not just pollyanna it away with an "oh its okay, it's only another couple of grand down the drain." attitude. Plus I am wondering if the dealer mechanics didn't some how screw it up when they were monkeying around with the new water pump and timing belt in November. I doubt it, but I'm not sure. Who knows what these guys got up to when they were in there. i have a 97obw aith 182K on the original headgasket. if it blew tomorrow i would blame old age, nit the car. My civic blew a Hg at 156K, none of my subarus ever blew a HG and all went over 200k.Part of it is that no one held onto cars long enough to get into the milage where HG failure is likely to happen. we used to walk away from cars with 100K miles on them. Now its not uncomon to have cars last 200K, so more and more times we get into the max life of the head gasket. Remeber you have two dissimlar metals creating a seal. the HG ic copper (or something similar) between two peices of aluminum. There are differnt expansion rates and other proerties for these materials, and after 100K miles, thats alot of stress. Any part that can hold its function for that long in my mind is not junk. And we all know that as a car gets older, we have more expensive repairs that happen. In the 50's and 60's it was typical for a engine to not last longer then 80K miles without a rebuild (i am not making a blanket statment so im sure there is somone that had one that lasted longer.. always is). This same engines now last for ever due to better fuels and oils. Nothing lasts for ever. if i had a 10yo refirgerator die on me, i wouldnt be jumping up and down screaming that the appliance is junk. Why do people do the same thing with a car that has over 100, 000 miles on it then complain the product is junk cause it needs a major repair. what about all those other trouble free miles before then? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Goughnour Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 97 OBW 135k. I've owned a Dodge, Chevy, Ford and a Honda. By far my OBW has been the best. I've changed my HG's for around 1k (my labor,machine work and every part inside that could go bad) and thats it. Nothing else except normal wear and tear items. Working on my AWD problem right now (my fault, didn't change fluid, ever). To blame a manufacture for a HG going bad, well over 100k is nieve. Original exhaust, axles, and not a single trim item has fallen off or broken. I'm enjoying not making a car payment every month. My wife wanted a KIA! Trade my Subaru for a KIA? NEVER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballitch Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 if i were you id be pissed too!!! i went thru the whole HG issue with my EA82 motor, not comon but still. when you said they replaced the radiator...did they give you a new one,......or a used one? if its used it COULD be clogged. when the car goes into the red does it lose power at all? the T-stat also sounds like a culprit, often times it is the T-stat, id try that first. if its not the T-stat, i would lean towards a HG. am i correct in guessing you have the EJ22? im pretty sure you do. if you get the HG job done, make sure they check for flatness of the heads, if they are not flat they will blow HG's again...and again...and again.... ~Josh~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Plus I am wondering if the dealer mechanics didn't some how screw it up when they were monkeying around with the new water pump and timing belt in November. I doubt it, but I'm not sure. Who knows what these guys got up to when they were in there. This all boils down to misdiagnosis of the issue. If you would have started at a good independent subaru shop rather than a dealership they would have tested for HG issues right off the bat. They could have done all the work, new HG, water pump, etc for $1800 or less. Dealerships are very bad a diagnosing problems, they do not let their techs do anything but parts swap since is this where the money is to be made. And after years of parts swapping their techs become terrible at trouble shooting. And I am assuming this is a 96 auto outback with the 2.5 motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 A men to the dealership and misdiagnositcs comment. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Wait a minute. Back in the day you could buy a used car with 90K on it for a couple of hundred bucks because, like you said, they were expected to die after 100k or so. These days used cars go for thousands of dollars and it isn't just because of inflation. It is because the myth states that certain cars are of better quality and will run for 200k miles with just minor repairs. That's why when something major goes out on it even at 120k it starts to look like more of a rip off. I just spent $1,300 on repairs for this piece of crap in November. Now they want another $1,800. What's it going to be next month? Also a 10 year old refrigerator won't kill you for trusting it with your life on a snowy highway. If Subaru can't live up to its reputation it is up to the jaded, exploited masses to lower their reputation for them, and not just pollyanna it away with an "oh its okay, it's only another couple of grand down the drain." attitude. Plus I am wondering if the dealer mechanics didn't some how screw it up when they were monkeying around with the new water pump and timing belt in November. I doubt it, but I'm not sure. Who knows what these guys got up to when they were in there. Any electrical appliance hs the potenial of causing a fire in house. Out of all the many many many people that own subarus, most are happy with them, and the ones with failed head gaskets get fixed and things go fine. You are pissed, there will be no calming you about the car. Since you got burned therefore all the millions of subarrus on the road are all potential death traps. If you are really that upset with the car, sell it and buy another brand. If you dont trust the mechanics, find another shop. Also if you feel you got screwed, go to small claims court. There really is no way to make you feel about it, or help you out with a solution. Sell the car or whatever, and go buy another brand. the other 99% here are happy with thier cars and realize that the older the car gets, the higher the mileage, the more likely a major repair is coming. cars are only required to be fully functional for 100,000 miles (federal enissons warrenty for a brand new car) and for your car it was 50K. you want to totally avoid a major problem either buy brand new or buy a throw away car and replace it every 5 years. And someplace in there i thnk you insulted the rest of us that are quite happy with our cars. good luck on whatever you do next nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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