Chef Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 1992 Subaru LEgacy LS AWD auto 242000 km. Ever since replacing my air suspension with a spring/strut setup my handling has not been so good. It tends to wander at high speed, the steering feels intermittently loose/tight, my tires slightly cupped in the front (rotated to rear now), and very prone to crosswind movements (really irritating). IT often pulls to the right, but largely due to crosswinds I think. I definitely need an alignment, but after bring it to the shop the guys told me my ball joints were worn out, especially the driver's side, and until that was repaired they couldn't align it. Fair enough. I want to confirm a few things. I will buy and replace the balljoints myself (hopefully). The main auto chain here offers "economy" balljoints for $27 and premium ones for $55. I'll probably have the car for less than a year or two. IS there really a significant difference? I just want to have a car that doesn't handle so oddly. What is the best way to test my tie rod ends? Should I just replace them too regardless? Two mechanics looking at my car so far didn't seem concerned about them (one I don't necessarily trust so much). Anything I'm not considering here? BTW, a bit off topic, but I put in some Quaker state high mileage 5w30 the other day and for the last two mornings in a row I've had a sticking tappet. It cleared out with a bit of revving, but should I change the oil again to regular 5w30? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ball joints will cause the odd handling you described. Check with subaruparts.com and see what OE ball joints go for. If you go the store route, compare the two side by side. i never heard of economy vs premium in balljoints. does one have a lifetime warrenty? if it does (and thats prbbly the only real differnce), go with the economy. Tie rod ends are easy. Jack up the car, grab the tire at the 3-9 oclock position and move it while looking at the tie rod end. there should be no play. If they are cheap enough, and while your there, i would replace them with the kind of milage that you have on the car. Im not to sure of the high mileage oil, i never use it. i know it has some additives in it that swell up the oil seals to stop oil leaks. What other goodies are in the oil i dont know. I have had many high mileage cars, and never had a need of the oil before it was invented, so i dont see a need for it now. Also last i read the literiture on it, they are calloing 75,000 miles high mileage, and i have a huge argument with that. High milage should be over 100, 000 miles or more. They also state reducing oil consumption due to evaporation http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/products/oil_highermileage.asp If you beleive that, you better take the summer air out of your tires and put in winter air (hehe). THey also claim to reduce or control alot of issues at 75000 miles that one should not be having on a well maintained engine. i think the product is alot of snake oil myself. Thats just my opinion, and im sure there will be a few here that will defend the product and swear its the best thing since sliced bread, but untill i see some test results supporting thier claims (or anyone else selling such oil) i wouldnt use it. The only thing i can suggest to you is change the oil again see if it goes away. Maybe one of the mystery additives in the oil ungummed something, and that gum was holding the lifter together. i'm a big fan of "if the car ran over 150,000 trouble free miles with product X, why should i change it now" nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thanks nipper, just wanted someone's opinion on this freaky suspension. I only tried this oil because it was on sale, and wondered if my car might like it for somereason. It might be a coincidence with the sticking tappet, but the timing is rather telling I think. Ball joints will cause the odd handling you described. Check with subaruparts.com and see what OE ball joints go for. If you go the store route, compare the two side by side. i never heard of economy vs premium in balljoints. does one have a lifetime warrenty? if it does (and thats prbbly the only real differnce), go with the economy. Tie rod ends are easy. Jack up the car, grab the tire at the 3-9 oclock position and move it while looking at the tie rod end. there should be no play. If they are cheap enough, and while your there, i would replace them with the kind of milage that you have on the car. Im not to sure of the high mileage oil, i never use it. i know it has some additives in it that swell up the oil seals to stop oil leaks. What other goodies are in the oil i dont know. I have had many high mileage cars, and never had a need of the oil before it was invented, so i dont see a need for it now. Also last i read the literiture on it, they are calloing 75,000 miles high mileage, and i have a huge argument with that. High milage should be over 100, 000 miles or more. They also state reducing oil consumption due to evaporation http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/products/oil_highermileage.asp If you beleive that, you better take the summer air out of your tires and put in winter air (hehe). THey also claim to reduce or control alot of issues at 75000 miles that one should not be having on a well maintained engine. i think the product is alot of snake oil myself. Thats just my opinion, and im sure there will be a few here that will defend the product and swear its the best thing since sliced bread, but untill i see some test results supporting thier claims (or anyone else selling such oil) i wouldnt use it. The only thing i can suggest to you is change the oil again see if it goes away. Maybe one of the mystery additives in the oil ungummed something, and that gum was holding the lifter together. i'm a big fan of "if the car ran over 150,000 trouble free miles with product X, why should i change it now" nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Yes i sort of stoped talking oil here, as its safer to talk religon and politics then oils viscosity and synt vs dino oils. i figured that this topic was safe as i haevnt seen to many discuss it, but i do have my bunker dug just in case. SOmetimes things are a coincidence, sometimes not. Only way to find out is to go back to your regular oil and see what happens. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 nipper, i've never heard of someone replacing a tierod just because it's old. a tie rod is good until it's bad. if you won't have any movement or play side to side (as you said) then you're fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thanks nipper, just wanted someone's opinion on this freaky suspension. I only tried this oil because it was on sale, and wondered if my car might like it for somereason. It might be a coincidence with the sticking tappet, but the timing is rather telling I think. have you replaced a balljoint before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 nipper, i've never heard of someone replacing a tierod just because it's old. a tie rod is good until it's bad. if you won't have any movement or play side to side (as you said) then you're fine. At that mileage, like i said, personally, i would replace them as long as im there. Last time i did tie rod ends they were cheap enough and didnt require much work. Also ive lost a tie rod end while the car was moving once (without warning), and it was at 180K, that ive gotten to the point at over 150K if i have to replace a BJ, i just replace anything that is ball joint like to be done with it. If he wanted to truly keep the car i would suggest doing bushings too. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 have you replaced a balljoint before? No, I have not. I understand it to be a pain in the rear, but steps can be taken to help. I'm considering renting a ball joint removal tool from Canadian Tire, but not sure if it will work. I have a haynes manual and have read a fair bit on it here. The idea is: Remove wheel remove cotter pin from balljoint nut loosen castellated nut loosen pinch bolt at sterring knuckle pry the ball joint out of the knuckle remove castellated nut and knock out ball joint installation = reverse This sound about right? I understand that using the jack on the bottom of the rotor (with wood block) helps take the pressure off the joint and makes "prying out" (read hammer out) easier. Some people here recommend a pickle fork. Some say pry bar. The tool Canadian Tire offers (free of charge, deposit only) seems to be some kind of clamp with disks/cylinders and and threaded rod. I'd like to use this, but have no idea how it works. Maybe it's for people with shocks andf not struts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 Ergh. Well, I braved the chilly weather (no garage) and I went for a preliminary try at replacing the one ball joint that has a substantial amount of play tonight. The good news is I managed to get the stubborn pinch bolt loose. I removed the pinch bolt, took off the cotter pin, loosened the castellated nut, and used a tire iron to push the steering knuckle from the control arm. It pushed the ball joint out a small bit, but it was stuck after that. I had little pry leverage and the tire iron had little room to catch and pull. With a bigger bar I might have been able to separate them, but I didn't. Canadian Tire has 36" pry bars on sale for $9, maybe I'll try that tomorrow. I tried pushing on the bottom of the control arm with the jack, but all that did was lift the freaking car off the jack stand (which is supporting the car by the crossmember near the exhaust downpipes, one of each side). Seems the suspension is a little... stiff. In the end, I used that technique to pop the ball joint back into the knuckle (a little scary when it popped in and the car suddenly dropped about 1 cm). But, my concern is that if I manage to pop the balljoint out, will I be able to get the new one reattached? I can use the pipe technique hitting the end of a strong pipe with a hammer to knock the control arm down - but not if I lift the control arm from beneath. Or should I remove the bottom end from the control arm first and then worry about separating the ball joint from the knuckle afterwards? I think that is how the tool I saw for rent functions. Maybe I'll try that. Or, I could always try to take the tension off the knuckle by detaching the strut... Some advice would be really nice, because I need to do this ASAP. I commute 200 km every day on icy windy roads. Thanks much! Chef No, I have not. I understand it to be a pain in the rear, but steps can be taken to help. I'm considering renting a ball joint removal tool from Canadian Tire, but not sure if it will work. I have a haynes manual and have read a fair bit on it here. The idea is: Remove wheel remove cotter pin from balljoint nut loosen castellated nut loosen pinch bolt at sterring knuckle pry the ball joint out of the knuckle remove castellated nut and knock out ball joint installation = reverse This sound about right? I understand that using the jack on the bottom of the rotor (with wood block) helps take the pressure off the joint and makes "prying out" (read hammer out) easier. Some people here recommend a pickle fork. Some say pry bar. The tool Canadian Tire offers (free of charge, deposit only) seems to be some kind of clamp with disks/cylinders and and threaded rod. I'd like to use this, but have no idea how it works. Maybe it's for people with shocks andf not struts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Talking to myself here I suppose, but oh well...:-p So I picked up a 36" pry bar and rented a picklefork tool. Saturday the plan is to do this darn balljoints. I will have a sledge on hand, and try to find an even larger pry bar if necessary at work. I may remove the sway bar link from the control arm to be able to lower the arm better. Than I will crank down on the control arm to pop the ball joint out of the knuckle, and use the pickle fork to pop the joint out of the control arm. Hopefully I can get this to line up fine myself as I don't have someone to help. Any word on this? BTW, having never done a balljoint before, I only now have become aware how the ball joints are upside down on the subaru compared to most other vehicles. That, and I think my haynes manual is in error. Figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 I couldn't wait until Saturday to chaneg the ball joints, and it was really nice out tonight, so i decided to use my trouble light and get to it. Well, the driver's side went pretty well, took me nearly 2 hours because I went slowly and methodically, and cleaned out the knuckle sockect nicely and lubed all bolts and the ball joint itself excessively with CV joint grease (had extra). I removed the sway bar link bolt to let the control arm drop, and the job was MUCH easier this way. Definitely recommend it. Take no time at all. The second joint was removed with slightly more difficulty than the first, but no big deal. Aagain, cleaned everything up nicely, lubed up the new joint, and attached ti to the control arm. Then I lowerd the knuckle onto it, and used the jack to lift the control arm to pop the joint into the knuckle. No go. The joint bent over at an odd angle, went partially in, and refused further entry. So I removed it to try again, and noticed the joint was really stiff. Very hard to move the bolt portion, with a scrapping feeling like metal on metal. I pulled the boot off and it was full of grease and looked fine, but felt off. Plus it was missing a new pinch bolt like the other one. So I had to put the old one back in with a torn boot. I pulled the boot off and filled it with more grease, then cleaned it, rubbed more grease on it and installed it. The threads on the bolt portion weere a bit mangled, but I managed to get the nut on tight with a bit of effort. So tomorrow I head back to Canadian tire. I had to have these ordered in specially, no outlet seems to keep them in stock. They have one, but it's the expensive premium one. I will try to get them to give it to me for the price of the "economy" one, tellling them I cannot drive on this worn joint until tuesday. Otherwise my steering is now noticeably improved and the clunking duiring slow bumpy driving is gone. Yay! Hopefully tomorrow I will egt the other ball joint and install it, and do some exhaust repair. Then maybe remove the snorkus and have some fun! Thanks for the information folks. Talking to myself here I suppose, but oh well...:-p So I picked up a 36" pry bar and rented a picklefork tool. Saturday the plan is to do this darn balljoints. I will have a sledge on hand, and try to find an even larger pry bar if necessary at work. I may remove the sway bar link from the control arm to be able to lower the arm better. Than I will crank down on the control arm to pop the ball joint out of the knuckle, and use the pickle fork to pop the joint out of the control arm. Hopefully I can get this to line up fine myself as I don't have someone to help. Any word on this? BTW, having never done a balljoint before, I only now have become aware how the ball joints are upside down on the subaru compared to most other vehicles. That, and I think my haynes manual is in error. Figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 A long shot, but just in case. Watch out with Canadian Tire ball joints. I bought two a few years back to put on the Loyale I had back then. Despite how much I tried I could'nt get the head of the joint in the knuckle. Just before comiting suicide, I thought of measuring the joint's head diameter with a precision caliper : it was bigger that the original, not by much but just enough to make it impossible to slide in. Since I had no other car, I had to file the joint back to the right dimension. So, it's maybe a good idea to take a measurement of the old joint's head and compare with the new one before bringing it back home. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 Probably a good call. I didn't, although I compared the two against one another and could see no real difference. I any event, I ended up getting the "premium" one they had in stock for the sale price ($43). I didn't care, I just wanted it in. Took me only half an hour tops. How much should the ball joint bolt portion be able to freely move in the socket? I didn't check the first one I installed. The second one seemed to move very stiffly with what felt like metal grinding. The thrid one I got today felt the same - very stiff. The old ones moved very freely, with no resistance. Is this normal? I also ended up dropping my exhaust frmo the flange between the second converter and the muffler. Pried the nubs out of the hangers with a screw driver, scrapped the rust off, and lubed with tons of grease. When I lowered the muffler section, it popped right off the flange which had been leaking badly and the bolts rusted. I cut off the bolts, drilled out the remainders, cleaned off the surfaces with a screwdriver and sandpaper, then glued a gasket with muffler cement to the muffler side. Crappy tire didn't have the right gasket for me, so I used the next closest one. Two actually, because they were thin. Then I re-hung the muffler section, fit it to the flange, used 7/16 bolts, washers, and nuts to attach. Now it's silent. At least that part of the exhaust is anyways! Whew. Tired. Going to pick up a movie and drink some beer. Girlfriend is out of town, time to relax by myself. Have fun all! Thanks for the info from everyone. A long shot, but just in case.Watch out with Canadian Tire ball joints. I bought two a few years back to put on the Loyale I had back then. Despite how much I tried I could'nt get the head of the joint in the knuckle. Just before comiting suicide, I thought of measuring the joint's head diameter with a precision caliper : it was bigger that the original, not by much but just enough to make it impossible to slide in. Since I had no other car, I had to file the joint back to the right dimension. So, it's maybe a good idea to take a measurement of the old joint's head and compare with the new one before bringing it back home. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 ts not unusual for new ball joints and tie rod ends to feel very stiff. They loosen up very quickly in service. Beer is good and will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 29, 2006 Author Share Posted January 29, 2006 Good to hear, although I'm slightly concerned. My steering feels REALLY stiff now, more than I think it ought to. Especially when I hit the gas hard and try to steer - sometimes it nearly locks up. Mind you, it's been doing that intermittently for some time now. PLus I've heard some odd noises coming from the last side I put the ball joint in, some popping-like sounds especially on left turns. Maybe I'm being paranoid... I don't have a torque wrench. I tried not to torque the pinch bolt and sway bar bushing bolts too hard. If I over-torqued would that cause some issues? ts not unusual for new ball joints and tie rod ends to feel very stiff. They loosen up very quickly in service. Beer is good and will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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