SubeeTed Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Hi ALL! Well....I'm in MAss. I guess the state has started putting 10% ethanol in all the gas! Just what does this do to my 2.5 DOC gas milage!? Anyone else run into this in there state? What happened to your MPG? Many thanks SubeeTed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Theoretically, 10% blend has 5% less energy by volume, so the MPG goes 5% down (as well as power). However, experimental studies show the percent is variable with different engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I used 10% ethanol gas for a spell a few years ago, since it had a 91 octance reading for the same price as 87. I found for the same period of time I got about 5-10% worse mileage. ethanol returns less power by weight than gasoline. But, maybe it was just me. Hi ALL!Well....I'm in MAss. I guess the state has started putting 10% ethanol in all the gas! Just what does this do to my 2.5 DOC gas milage!? Anyone else run into this in there state? What happened to your MPG? Many thanks SubeeTed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Here in NY we have had it for ages. It's amazing what the ECU can adjust for. i saw no differnce on any of my cars with FI. Carberator cars had some loss of mpg. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 They just started? We've had it for at least 10 years as "winter" gas. Yes, it gives a little worse mileage because of the lower btus/gallon. But remember, in the wintertime your mileage will go down anyway because of snow tires, more warmup time, more accessories on, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOMAD327 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 The ethanol is there to replace the MTBE that's been put in for the last few years for no good reason. (oxygenated fuel) It's been phased out a lot of places because it likes to help any fuel leak go straight into the ground water in the area. I wouldn't expect a big economy difference with 10%, but the 85% that the greenies are now pushing as the next big thing is another story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxrflyboy Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 The ethanol is there to replace the MTBE that's been put in for the last few years for no good reason. (oxygenated fuel) It's been phased out a lot of places because it likes to help any fuel leak go straight into the ground water in the area. I wouldn't expect a big economy difference with 10%, but the 85% that the greenies are now pushing as the next big thing is another story The 85% Ethanol (E85) has been around for a while now. It's fairly common in the midwest. Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFVs) are designed to run correctly with gasoline or E85. They are as common as Coca-Cola nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexk02 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Just noticed - Hess stations in NJ sell 10% ethanol. It is a bit cheaper, but the mileage is worse compared to Sunoco (I am talking about regular gas with 87 octane). In my 99 Legacy wagon (MT, 2.2l) I normally get around 300 miles on 3/4 tank. With 10% ethanol it was about 275 miles. It is in mostly highway driving and I keep it under 70 to save gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Just noticed - Hess stations in NJ sell 10% ethanol. It is a bit cheaper, but the mileage is worse compared to Sunoco (I am talking about regular gas with 87 octane). In my 99 Legacy wagon (MT, 2.2l) I normally get around 300 miles on 3/4 tank. With 10% ethanol it was about 275 miles. It is in mostly highway driving and I keep it under 70 to save gas. so YOUR the one that does less then 70 in NJ, we were wondering who that one singular person was making it harder for the rest of us (heheheh) all gas in NY has ethanol downstate, nit sure about upstate nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I normally get around 300 miles on 3/4 tank. With 10% ethanol it was about 275 miles. It is in mostly highway driving and I keep it under 70 to save gas. Help the farmers!!! buy the "cheap" 10% ethanol gas that's been subsidized with tax money. (wait- how much does it cost to convert corn to ethanol per gallon???) Basically if you ain't buying 10% EtOH gas, then you're paying part of someone else's gas bill. But this is a good thing because we could cut our demand for the evil "foreign oil" by 10% if we used ethanol gas. too bad we have to burn 10% more gas to get the same amount of miles per tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 No metter how one calculates, there is no net oil saving with using alcohol fuel. One scientist from Belkeley calculated that we may acctually use more oil to produce alcohol fuel. The 85% alcohol fuel is basically a form of scam. However, the reason ethanol is added at 10% is to improve emissions (oxygenator). I don't have a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrian Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I think MTBE contaminates groundwater, kills trees, and makes baby Jesus cry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 The 85% Ethanol (E85) has been around for a while now. It's fairly common in the midwest. Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFVs) are designed to run correctly with gasoline or E85. They are as common as Coca-Cola nowadays. To bad they're all V-8 things like Ford Crown Vics, and pickups... If I could buy E-85 here I might put a tank of it in my subaru just to see what would happen, though. My O2 sensor is already dead anyway. The studies I've see show a lot more promise for the cellulostic ethanol than the current stuff made from corn starch/sugar. From a getting out more energy than you put in standpoint, that is. Biodiesel's a bit better -- somewhere around 4 times as much energy out as it takes to grow/refine it. That's why I switched to diesel vehicals for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxrflyboy Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 To bad they're all V-8 things like Ford Crown Vics, and pickups... If I could buy E-85 here I might put a tank of it in my subaru just to see what would happen, though. My O2 sensor is already dead anyway. The studies I've see show a lot more promise for the cellulostic ethanol than the current stuff made from corn starch/sugar. From a getting out more energy than you put in standpoint, that is. Biodiesel's a bit better -- somewhere around 4 times as much energy out as it takes to grow/refine it. That's why I switched to diesel vehicals for now. They're not all V8s, but most aren't small. The Taurus is the first FFV I knew existed. It's a V6, but it's considered a full size car nowadays. I'm pretty sure Honda and Toyota make FFVs too, but I can't say for sure. I don't think Subaru does though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugbyben Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 This is a very interesting topic. Thanks Ted I have heard (by word of mouth only). That when using alcohol in fuel, your engine lubricants break down much quicker so you will need to change your oil more frequently. Like i said this is a roomer but can anyone confirm/deny? I believe the argument is that the alcohol works as a detergent (unintentionally) and lowers viscosity causing more wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOMAD327 Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 e-85 melts certain plastics and must not be put in vehicles not designed for it. I believe the computer will not do well with it either, and of course notably poorer economy, as the fuel has higher octane, but lower energy per gallon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 This is a very interesting topic. Thanks Ted I have heard (by word of mouth only). That when using alcohol in fuel, your engine lubricants break down much quicker so you will need to change your oil more frequently. Like i said this is a roomer but can anyone confirm/deny? I believe the argument is that the alcohol works as a detergent (unintentionally) and lowers viscosity causing more wear. If you google, you can find a study done by Australian goverment to evaluate feasibility of 20% alcohol fuel. The long term test on several stock cars (one of the test cars was actually a SUBARU) showed higher engine wear and more engine deposits. The recommendation was not to implement that fuel. I don't remember if oil analysis was part of the study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 This is a very interesting topic. Thanks Ted I have heard (by word of mouth only). That when using alcohol in fuel, your engine lubricants break down much quicker so you will need to change your oil more frequently. Like i said this is a roomer but can anyone confirm/deny? I believe the argument is that the alcohol works as a detergent (unintentionally) and lowers viscosity causing more wear. Alchol is a solvent, a mild one. Gasoline is a far stronger solvent. Alchol evaporates very quickly compared to gasoline, gasoline is the much more detremental solvent to motor oil. 10% is considered a safe amount that will promote no early wear, and the rubber and plastic parts can deal with it. anything as high as 12% or better starts doing damage. OE recomends nothing higher then 10% without modifications. ANy none gasoline fuel is going to promote faster wear on engines and fuel systems not purely designed for that fuel. THere was for a while LP gas powered ford rangers for the phone company out west. at 60K they would all need new cylinder heads, and then they would be converted back to gasoline. The phone company was expecting 120k out of the vehicals. i worked for an autoparts manufacturer and we would test the fuel system parts at 15% and the plastic ones would melt, where at 10% they were fine. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulcheese Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Here's a little info http://http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/altfuel/ethanol.html As far as ehtanol affecting mpg's, that is a myth, a theory, none at all. We have had ethanol in the fuel here, Mn., for so long that I can't even remember not having it. There is now legislation to increase and with that there are no complaints only praises. It is made from corn and what can this country produce in abundace. I have driven my subby across the country many times and not once has the mpg's increased or decreased because of ethanol. I'm sure you can do the math and read into the science behind it but in all reality if there is a difference you will never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendly_jacek Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Mulch, Your link didn't work for me. I don't know what your agenda is but I did see studies sponsored by agricultural industries that show variable decrease in MPG and even increase in some cars under some circumstances. They concluded that the MPG effect is "negligible". It may be negligible for individuals but not for the nation. This can explain your observation. Mybe your car runs too rich and the extra oxygen from alcohol improves combustion. However, alcohol contains 50% less combustion energy by volume, period. It's a scientific fact. How can you argue with the science? I said that before in this thread but I will reiterate: If you take in the account the oil used to grow, harvest, ferment, and destill corn/ethanol as well as produce the fertilizers, pesticides, and agricultural machinery, you put more oil in than you get back from the ethanol produced. I'm not against ethanol in fuel per se, because 10% improves emissions, but claiming that the 85% ethanol fuel is "green" is just a fraud and I'm dissapointed that US public is so gullible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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