ShockingChicken Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 She's back together in one piece! Woohoo!! A month after ChalkAttack went down for a engine rebuild she's back together and back on the road: 10 miles into the initial 500 mile break in. Just a few questions: * Cam noise typical during first 10 minutes of initial start-up (first start after rebuild....gone and purrs, now) * Haynes said to "accelerate sharply" from 30 to 50 and coast back to 30 about 10 to 12 times to load the rings. Any other tips I should do? * Fast idle (cold start) not engaging... what controls this? My main question: * Runs kinda' rough...is this typical for the initial break-in? Or should it run smooth? I'm considering running B-12 through the gas (month-old gas) and doubly-checking vacuum hoses. Any other ideas? Thank y'all so much! More pictures will be posted on my website soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 good job. complete new rings, bearings and everything? nice, interested to see those pictures. runs rough, any noise? HLA's tapping? timing belts off one tooth. distributor not set properly in housing...a tooth off (probably wouldn't start or would run really bad). ignition timing needs set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoaudi Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 You should be using a non-detergent motor oil for a break-in, it helps those rings seat in, in-city driving is just fine for ring seating. If your not using the exhaust gases to push the rings out against the cylinder walls nice and hard they could seat improperly. Also, you might want to change the oil filter at about 250 miles, just add a little bit of the same non detergent motor oil to make up for what was in the filter. Then between 500 and 750 miles change the filter and oil now you can use the favorite delo 400!!! And then do a change at about 1500- 2000 miles and then you can change oil and filter at the reccomended normal intervals. NOTE: this is the break in schedule I used on my 85 toyota truck; our soobs might like something different, just some general advice. DId you do your own rebuild? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 what do they do at the factory? did they break-in every production car off the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 You should be using a non-detergent motor oil for a break-in, it helps those rings seat in, in-city driving is just fine for ring seating... My counter-opinion is that detergent/non-detergent oil should make little or no difference for ring seating. All the detergent does is help remove and suspend contaminants. Non-detergent MIGHT have an effect by leaving grit/particulates around that MIGHT scuff the rings, but it will also scuff everything else. I would rather have the breakin products removed by the filter... In Ye Olde Days, they recommended against detergent oil because it was new, more expensive, and would produce more ash when burned; not really the issues anymore. Way back "Then", if you used it in lawnmowers and some motorcycles it would void your warranty. That was Then and this is Now. BTW, were your rings "plain", chromed, or moly-filled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockingChicken Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 Timing is right at 20deg BTDC per the sticker under the hood. Timing belts could be off a tooth, but I was pretty thorough on checking all that (I took two full days to put all the "accessories" on the engine). What would be the symptoms? Yes, I did the rebuild myself: new heads, cams from a junkyard and original block (the machine shop who cleaned and honed my block/cams said the block and pistons were in AMAZING condition, especially for having 240k on them! I did the rebuild initially because of needing new heads (coolant in exhaust) not because of engine troubles. More specific on the roughness: cold starts it sounds like it's misfiring/not firing on a piston (or two?) with a LOT of vibration... smoothes out when up to temp. Any new ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockingChicken Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 Not sure the specific type of rings... I had the guy at the machine shop buy them and install them for me since he had a ring opener-thingy and a good price. Yeah, I did the tear-down and rebuild myself--quite a feat! Took my time and made sure to do everything right: no shortcuts! Other things to note: OIL PRESSURE! Holy cow I've never seen it this low! near 0 @ idle, not above 45 @ 3k... Is this normal!? It's a brand new oil pump and I haven't found any leaks yet! Is it going to be like this until I change the oil? Or is it something else that needs to be tended to ASAP? ROUGH RUNNING: surging while driving. Idles okay, though. Worse when cold (misfire?). Is this a possible t-belt tooth off like suggested earlier? Or something else? Any and all help is super nifty; want to make sure I do everything right and help this car make it another 250k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrroot Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 OIL PRESSURE! Holy cow I've never seen it this low! near 0 @ idle, not above 45 @ 3k... Is this normal!? It's a brand new oil pump and I haven't found any leaks yet! Is it going to be like this until I change the oil? Or is it something else that needs to be tended to ASAP? Look into this ASAP. That isn't good and you're gonna ruin your nice new engine rebuild! You going by dash guage or screw-in tester? Definitely want a tester - don't trust those dash guages. ROUGH RUNNING: surging while driving. Idles okay, though. Worse when cold (misfire?). Is this a possible t-belt tooth off like suggested earlier? Or something else? Check timing. Also, pull your plugs and make sure they all look like they've been firing. Check compression. What does your exhaust smell like? Check your spark color. New rotor/cap? How do they look? What about your injectors? Fuel filter? I could go on, but you've got a fair bit to start with. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayakertom Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Oil pressure: Did you use the special reinforced o-rings between the heads and camshaft towers? With the rough running, check for a vacuum leak by pulling off a vacuum hose and see if it runs rougher. ... Yeah, I did the tear-down and rebuild myself--quite a feat! Took my time and made sure to do everything right: no shortcuts! Other things to note: OIL PRESSURE! Holy cow I've never seen it this low! near 0 @ idle, not above 45 @ 3k... Is this normal!? It's a brand new oil pump and I haven't found any leaks yet! Is it going to be like this until I change the oil? Or is it something else that needs to be tended to ASAP? ROUGH RUNNING: surging while driving. Idles okay, though. Worse when cold (misfire?). Is this a possible t-belt tooth off like suggested earlier? Or something else? Any and all help is super nifty; want to make sure I do everything right and help this car make it another 250k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Not sure the specific type of rings... I had the guy at the machine shop buy them and install them for me since he had a ring opener-thingy and a good price... The reason I asked about rings is that the cylinder should be finished to "match" the ring-type: Chrome needs a rougher finish than moly to break-in. Hopefully, the machinist knows his stuff well enough. Break-in on the rings will also vary depending on ring-type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockingChicken Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 RINGS: Again, I'm not sure. The guy that did the honing and the rings does good work and knows his stuff, so I'm sure they're okay. What's the visual difference? I looked at the rings when I alligned them before inserting the pistons... OIL PRESSURE: yup, installed OEM o-rings around oil hole thingy on cam. Maybe it's the oil I'm using? The pressure is high when cold but gets pretty low as the engine heats up... from 6 - 50 range at 500-3000 rpms. Perhaps this typical for 10w-30 non-synthetic? SURGE: This is still a mystery. I fixed a leaking PCV hose... things run a little better now. Still need some more driving to tell for sure. When engine was luke warm (not norm. temp, not cold) I opened full throttle while at idle and got a backfire! Hasn't happened since the engine warmed up. Now it just bellows slightly before catching up. Timing is still fine. Again, could this be a possible symptom of a timing belt being a tooth off? Under medium load I get the wet explosion-type sound that you sometimes hear under heavy load. The exhaust smell and that full throttle thing both seem like rich mixture symptoms? New O2 sensor, though... Poderous, really ponderous... Thanks, again, for all the help! At least the tape deck I got from the junkyard works!!! Yessssss. Gotta dig my Talking Heads tape! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrroot Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 OIL PRESSURE: yup, installed OEM o-rings around oil hole thingy on cam. Maybe it's the oil I'm using? The pressure is high when cold but gets pretty low as the engine heats up... from 6 - 50 range at 500-3000 rpms. Perhaps this typical for 10w-30 non-synthetic? Hrmm... You might try a heavier oil.. 20W50 is quite common in older soobs, I hear.. Another thought - you said this is a new oil pump.. But what about the cavity the pump sits in? Did you check the tolerances in there? I believe the haynes book covers tolerance checking for it.. Something to consider.. At least the tape deck I got from the junkyard works!!! Yessssss. Gotta dig my Talking Heads tape! Kick rump roast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Various bad running could be caused by being one tooth off. Fairly easy to pull the outer covers and check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockingChicken Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 80 miles out of 500 Well, the timing belt was half of a tooth off: driver's side tensioner was too tight. Running much smoother now! Engine is running a little hot: is 192 deg a good temp for the thermostat? I think this is also why the oil pressure is slightly lower than normal. Engine also still seems to run a little rich...or perhaps there is another reason for the slight performance hit. Symptom: the wider the throttle the more the engine feels like it's slightly bogging. Any ideas? Next up: Why my rear end wobbles!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I'm not even sure how one would get the tensioner that tight... but... You will get differing opinions about the t-stat temp. There is a lot of shade-tree lore and old-wives tales about t-stats and such. My opinion is that 192F is what came stock, and should continue to be used; changing to anything cooler is a band-aid, and an ineffective one at that. (Once the opening temp is reached, it is open and any increase in operating temp is unrelated to a properly functioning t-stat.) How hot is "hot"? This is all relative to what your gauge used to read, not its current absolute reading (1/2 scale or 2/3 scale only relates to its original "normal" reading). Have you rechecked coolant level? It sometimes takes me days to get the cooling system properly filled; a steep incline really helps. And patience... Regarding, down on power, maybe rich: I can't see (I am in "Reply"-mode) if yours is fuel injected or not; if it is, the Coolant Thermo Sensor (CTS) could have bad/corroded contacts at its connector. With FI or carb, the EGO sensor (O2 sensor) could be disconnected or bad. If carb'd, the duty solenoids might be disconnected or malfunctioning. (BTW, rich running will sound somewhat bubbly/blubbery, lean will sound kind of dull and hollow, and about right will sound sharp and ripping.) Spark plugs or wires could be deteriorated. Should check the plugs anyways to see if their color looks ok or if they are sooty or oily. What is your timing set at (and, if you have not already posted, carb or SPFI/MPFI)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockingChicken Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 My opinion is that 192F is what came stock, and should continue to be used; How hot is "hot"? This is all relative to what your gauge used to read, not its current absolute reading (1/2 scale or 2/3 scale only relates to its original "normal" reading). Have you rechecked coolant level? It sometimes takes me days to get the cooling system properly filled; a steep incline really helps. And patience... Well, the guage hovers a hair before 1/2 to a hair after 1/2. But the difference in performance and oil pressure, etc, seem pretty significant between those two...? But it never gets higher than that. New HEater core, new radiator, block is cleaned, heads are new, cooling system was flushed with cleaner during first run. Regular 50/50 in it, now. Maybe I'm just being silly and or anal/paranoid. Regarding, down on power, maybe rich: I can't see (I am in "Reply"-mode) if yours is fuel injected or not; if it is, the Coolant Thermo Sensor (CTS) could have bad/corroded contacts at its connector. With FI or carb, the EGO sensor (O2 sensor) could be disconnected or bad. If carb'd, the duty solenoids might be disconnected or malfunctioning. (BTW, rich running will sound somewhat bubbly/blubbery, lean will sound kind of dull and hollow, and about right will sound sharp and ripping.) Spark plugs or wires could be deteriorated. Should check the plugs anyways to see if their color looks ok or if they are sooty or oily. What is your timing set at (and, if you have not already posted, carb or SPFI/MPFI)? Welp, timing is 20deg BTDC. The Haynes said to rotate the camshaft counterclockwise (with new T-belt on) to tense tensioner before tightening it. This was too much and put the cam's alignment slightly off. LEtting the tensioner's spring do the tensing was enough. When cold the engine acts like it's missing... and if I open full throttle while at idle it backfires and nearly dies. Curious! Clears up when warm, though. Plugs are new, cables are new, rotor and disty have 20k on them, at the most. Injector (TBFI) is original (240k miles). O2 sensor is new. I cleaned all of the sensors on the intake manifold (two on coolant channel, one on intake channel). But perhaps they could still be bad? Is one of these the CTS? Haven't checked fuel pressure yet since the rebuild, but it was fine before the rebuild. Is there a way to test the injector? The ticks seems regular... Thanks for all of your input, NorthWet, it's been really helpful! On another note: any ideas on why the rear end would wobble when it gets hot (accompanied by a winding sound coming from the right rear tire that sounds a bit like a metal baseball card flapping on bicycle spokes...in a pattern that suggests it's only happened during half of the revolution of the tire...)? Oh, and it goes away when I turn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Roberts Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 ...On another note: any ideas on why the rear end would wobble when it gets hot (accompanied by a winding sound coming from the right rear tire that sounds a bit like a metal baseball card flapping on bicycle spokes...in a pattern that suggests it's only happened during half of the revolution of the tire...)? Oh, and it goes away when I turn... Um. Wobble as the vehicle's shaking? Dunno. Mine ('88) is coming up to 1000 miles since rebuild and is doing that on acceleration but in the front end -- the local mechanic blames the rebuilder for uneven compression, but the local tire shop found a front end problem --steering knuckle worn far past what the adjustment could take up so it's worn a large hole, getting ready to fall out. Three Subaru shops missed that problem. Tire shop's hunting for the part now. I've still got, intermittently, a sewing-machine-gun (loud sharp) rattle for 10-20 min after starting, some of the time; I'm assuming it's one lifter sticky and will eventually wear in; don't know if the rebuilder I used touches those or not, hope they were refurbished. I've been told 1000 miles for breakin. I'm hoping (sigh). Rear end -- I had a noise like that and it was half of the brake backing plate touching the rim partway around each wheel rotation (the other half is somewhere on the freeway). Lesson learned -- these old Su's are inventing new failure modes nowadays that nobody ever saw before, as they pass 200k miles; things begin to fail all over the vehicle. Scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 The camshaft sprocket is supposed to have some "preload" (IIRC, around 10-15 ft-lbs) just to make sure that all of the slack is under the tensioner. How did you set the timing? Did you first connect the green connectors by the wiper motor? If so, did you remember to disconnect them again? Engine should not be backfiring (duh!)... sounds like a valve/ignition timing issue. I would not be concerned with the temp too much if it hits a certain point on your gauge and then stays there (does not climb above it noticeably while under stress). One of the connectors that you cleaned should have been the CTS (2 wire connector, screws in to water-contact); I can't remember exactly where it is on the SPFI (ones on turbos are a PITA to get at). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockingChicken Posted July 9, 2006 Author Share Posted July 9, 2006 WOBBLE: Well, I'm pretty sure the sound is possibly a blown bearing in the RR tire (already replaced the LR...). unfortunately, though, I have to replace the whole RR knuckle because I can't unscrew that damn nut that holds the bearings in place in the rear! grrrr... The wobble itself? Maybe the driveshaft is off balance? ROUGH RUNNING: CTS might be slighty off, but it still works for the most part. Will probably still replace it. However, my fuel pressure going into the throttle body was at 25, and the specs say 17.5-24. Could this be pushing too much through the injector? Lord knows how old that pressure regulator is... NorthWet, yup, I plugged/unplugged the test connectors. They didn't really have much of an effect, though. *shrugs* I timed it both plugged & unplugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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