bgd73 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I was out to rotate tires and found this: The white substance is something you find on a battery post (alkalinic). It was on all 4 studs.I knew it was happening to this left rear wheel,fresh painted about a week, getting targeted invisibly electrical (static), long before I painted at it. It finally revealed itself.To understand a bit where I am coming from.. I had a piece of metal in my foot for 9 years after an operation. I had my Subaru DL's No.4 cylinder "skipping" off my bare clutch pedal to the outside of my drivers door with a blue spark climbing off my finger (through my bad foot). I have even followed short circuits with my eyeballs.... I am wondering what makes the ground disperse to a greater area than my back left wheel, next to my shiny new muffler... please don't mention hubcaps . I don't want to go on the 4th set of rear wheel bearings at under 200k . Can an expert guide this static monster to a better place? I have a completely normal running electrical system, everything works great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I had my Subaru DL's No.4 cylinder "skipping" off my bare clutch pedal to the outside of my drivers door with a blue spark climbing off my finger (through my bad foot). I have even followed short circuits with my eyeballs.... High dose of lithium perhaps?? Seriously tho - sounds like a grounding issue - the grounds on the older subaru's tend to not be very pretty. I would clean each ground connection you have, and also run a nice big 2 guage bit of welding cable from the engine block to the negative battery post. And possibly another one to the vehicle body. To combat corrosion of metal like that, you need a sacrificial metal to take the hit for you. Zinc is the prefered choice. You already have zinc in your coolant, so you may want to check your ground to the radiator. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 High dose of lithium perhaps?? Seriously tho - sounds like a grounding issue - the grounds on the older subaru's tend to not be very pretty. I would clean each ground connection you have, and also run a nice big 2 guage bit of welding cable from the engine block to the negative battery post. And possibly another one to the vehicle body. To combat corrosion of metal like that, you need a sacrificial metal to take the hit for you. Zinc is the prefered choice. You already have zinc in your coolant, so you may want to check your ground to the radiator. GD hey- I met someone on lithium. Its not even funny to joke The car ran off my damn finger - of course making the cylinder skip. clutch pedal simply had no rubber on it, my foot bare. I bet a healthy person could do this with an old sube Heck, I've seen it happen in other cars and scenarios entirely... what discipline engineers must have: "who cares where 'it' climbs back out of" <- that is my honest impression of every freakin car known to mankind. I am wondering if I am kicking out an original problem over a year now. The alternator was half running on one brush when I first got car. I changed alternator to blow a fusible link - something got very stubborn and content on a bad alternator. Luckily everything keeps working for this year and a half now on new one.I looked things over and am assuming it really likes the new muffler, new flow, and spinning physics of old steel wheel.I bet once muffler gets dirty and rusts a bit, it is back to whatever engineers never really figured out anyway . I'm rather glad to see this dirty alkalinic stuff vacating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingbobdole Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 maybe you can get one of those "STi SRT4 hodna dodge pickup diesel matco snap-on ground wire super complete kit" off Ebay and freshen up your grounds... if that doesnt work you can always school-bus-it-up and drag some chains behind ya:banana: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 hey- I met someone on lithium. Its not even funny to joke Sorry - just joking - they don't really use the stuff anymore. Too many side effects. I was simply sugesting it to get rid of the "visions" of sparks jumping around in your cabin..... . It [was] generally perscribed for such halucinations - hearing voices - visions of sugar plums - etc. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I am wondering if I am kicking out an original problem over a year now. The alternator was half running on one brush when I first got car. I changed alternator to blow a fusible link - something got very stubborn and content on a bad alternator. Luckily everything keeps working for this year and a half now on new one.I looked things over and am assuming it really likes the new muffler, new flow, and spinning physics of old steel wheel.I bet once muffler gets dirty and rusts a bit, it is back to whatever engineers never really figured out anyway . I'm rather glad to see this dirty alkalinic stuff vacating one brush?? If the alternator has only 1 brush contacting, then it wont produce current at all. If you have a bad diode then it will have 1/3 the output, perhaps thats what you meant? As for the corrosion, is that tire different then the rest? if you have a steel belted one there versus nylon ones on the other tires, I can see that one wheel acting as a capacitor. Probably should just put some dielectric grease on the threads to prevent moisture from getting in there, and torque the lugs to spec -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durania Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Im pretty sure I follow you. So you have an electrical current running to your back wheel? Wouldn't the tire act as a ground though? Im still kinda confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 i have learned alot about automotive electrical systems in the last six or seven years.. and i have to admit im a bit stumped as to exactly what youre talking about, too.... what you are saying is that there is positive current somehow leaking into your chassis ground? or what? i mean, i have read a post or two about this floating electrical problem you (bgd) have, and they seemed to make more sense than this one. could someone please explain exactly what youre talking about? certain bits of metal are acting as grounds and certain bits arent? i can see that causing serious problems.. but i cant say i could predict everything it might cause.. I guess, I'm trying to say that I know enough about 'lectrical junk to know that this is right about the definition of the edge of what i DONT know/understand/grok in fullness..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durania Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 i have learned alot about automotive electrical systems in the last six or seven years.. and i have to admit im a bit stumped as to exactly what youre talking about, too.... what you are saying is that there is positive current somehow leaking into your chassis ground? or what? i mean, i have read a post or two about this floating electrical problem you (bgd) have, and they seemed to make more sense than this one. could someone please explain exactly what youre talking about? certain bits of metal are acting as grounds and certain bits arent? i can see that causing serious problems.. but i cant say i could predict everything it might cause.. I guess, I'm trying to say that I know enough about 'lectrical junk to know that this is right about the definition of the edge of what i DONT know/understand/grok in fullness..... Least I know that I am not the only one confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 one brush?? If the alternator has only 1 brush contacting, then it wont produce current at all. If you have a bad diode then it will have 1/3 the output, perhaps thats what you meant? As for the corrosion, is that tire different then the rest? if you have a steel belted one there versus nylon ones on the other tires, I can see that one wheel acting as a capacitor. Probably should just put some dielectric grease on the threads to prevent moisture from getting in there, and torque the lugs to spec -Mike It did indeed run on one brush for several years (from what I can gather). the lights were dim, and it blew radio fuses. It did get sprites above a certain rpm of decent juice, must have been zapping the gap to correct volts around 2k rpm- inconsistently. New alternator was excellent, except ecu and spfi stuff hesitated, burped, choked for quite some time and many full resets. That is not corrosion on the stud- that wheel was just painted inside and out off of the car a week previous. That is what I found , electrically related. I knew car has been self cleaning wires slowly but surely with new alternator flow- reminded me of my old pc that had a new power supply. Except you can monitor a pc.I am assuming when alt was bad, the cars demand sucked at the battery- and got this slight poison of alkali. I am lucky it didn;t target the system (the poison of battery) .scary subject - "can't see it- don't bother with it", seems to be majority trying to explain myself. That on the wheels is a good thing believe it or not, it doesn't want to stay and corrode the body, anywhere I can find as of yet. To ponder what I found- the battery cable is grounded. Where is the final resting place , but the air, on our rubber wheeled cars. It does seem fitting it found the wheel spinning next to the new muffler- it does like the exhaust heat and flows with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joostvdw Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I must say, this is starting to become increasingly difficult to understand your saying "it" likes your new muffler and hot exhaust gasses, but on the other hand it's a good thing your wheelnuts are rusting (while you've just painted them) and spark are flying to your hands.... talk about communication difficulties :-\ I may have read that you are from a different country? could that explain your "interesting" description of problems? or should I start smoking something and come back later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrap487 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 man that is some freaky stuff... I dont understand a thing bout the electrical stuff you guys are talking but man... wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 man that is some freaky stuff... I dont understand a thing bout the electrical stuff you guys are talking but man... wow The truely amazing thing, and the part that will really blow your mind, is that no one else understands it either. That's what happens when you use your imagination (and possibly supplemental pharmaceuticals) rather than a good book.... people have no idea what you are talking about. I'm seriously sending a linky to this thread to a couple EE friends of mine for a good laugh. Rock on. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 The truely amazing thing, and the part that will really blow your mind, is that no one else understands it either. That's what happens when you use your imagination (and possibly supplemental pharmaceuticals) rather than a good book.... people have no idea what you are talking about. I'm seriously sending a linky to this thread to a couple EE friends of mine for a good laugh. Rock on. GD You're a real polite one. I guess Portland oregon is the world- never knowing to yourself it is only your small piece of it. I have got a stranger tale to tell you-- I used to work on several billion dollars worth of aircraft and gave a signature to fly if I said it was good. The physics I am referring to are so precise on these 50 year old airplanes, I sought out the same things in my car after getting "lifted" involuntarily though the air - no wires. Cars have it to a much lesser extent and at 12 volts, most often simply static. In real cold weather however, cars spark it off like lightning sometimes, unlike your portland-oregon-declared-the-world. Think before you speak- you just might get zapped invisibly and asked to explain to your "EE" friends all the way to pharmaceuticals leaving you so deranged you singing hippy dippy love songs with a boozer pluckin at his guitar on the street. There is a Portland here in Maine as well- oh my goodness- that makes more than your portland and extreme thorough knowledge to prejudice across the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundeye Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Did you ever stop to think that this guy could be waaaaaay over you instead of crazy? Indeed, some things do sound drug-induced, but look up what a "corposant" (Saint Elmo's fire) and "sprite" is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Just cause you worked on aircraft for the military? My father was a C130 mechanic in vietnam - shop forman etc. He had similar responsibilities.... still can't work on a car to save his life. He's a good cabinet maker tho. As for electrical and electronics - I have an ARMY security clearance to work on 120 kilowatt jet-turbine generators.... you know - the ones used for the patriot missle system? Being a 52D generator technician doesn't mean I know *everything* to do with high voltage eletrical systems, but I know my way around. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 I am sorry to have replied like I did to "GD". After reading the post it took a few moments and I became seriously offended. I survived an event that made my life unusual - all the way to personally superstitious about it. I am still in need to explain myself. Below is a link to an offensive photograph of my teeth, I will not post this photo to give a warning of its offense . It all happened without decay, but in a matter of seconds.There are deathrow electrocutions successful without the happenings to my body and mind - and I survived. That post brought frustrating tears to my eyes, as that very prejudice misdiagnosed my life Mr.GD, I will not just passively try to eat the offense given. I really do solve electrical anomolies to the point of unexplainable.I am lucky to be alive to do so. Even the photo has got me goosebumped superstitious as imageshack randomly changes the name to post it- there is now a suffix of "nu0" - I knew zero of what happened to me.Kinda spooky even by my own sane standards of life. http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/533/teethzappednu0.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 It may not be so much that the "anomilies" you describe are not there. Lord knows I've seen stranger things.... but more the way you communicate them in writing. We are quite often having a very difficult time understanding your posts. I'm guessing that if I were to speak with you in person, and actually see what you are refering to, we would come to a more mutual conclusion about it's source. You definately know something about what you are speaking, but maybe just don't know the right technical terms for such things? I'm just guessing here. Not trying to offend you, and I have only the highest regard for vetrans (having been a part of the military myself) - heck, I still think you may want to address some ground wires. If the ignition system shorts through the clutch cable, through your foot, and to the door panel then you definately have either a plug wire problem or a grounding issue with the engine block. Stuff like that can happen as the ignition system runs at around 40,000 volts, so it's possible for it to jump distances like that. The wheel thing..... well I can't see how that could possibly be electrical related. Sounds more environmental to me. Salt or other chemicals perhaps used in paving or other road work. The rubber in the tire would preclude all but the most insanely large voltages from passing, and the lug nut is not the shortest path to.... anything. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 It may not be so much that the "anomilies" you describe are not there. Lord knows I've seen stranger things.... but more the way you communicate them in writing. We are quite often having a very difficult time understanding your posts. I'm guessing that if I were to speak with you in person, and actually see what you are refering to, we would come to a more mutual conclusion about it's source. You definately know something about what you are speaking, but maybe just don't know the right technical terms for such things? I'm just guessing here. Not trying to offend you, and I have only the highest regard for vetrans (having been a part of the military myself) - heck, I still think you may want to address some ground wires. If the ignition system shorts through the clutch cable, through your foot, and to the door panel then you definately have either a plug wire problem or a grounding issue with the engine block. Stuff like that can happen as the ignition system runs at around 40,000 volts, so it's possible for it to jump distances like that. The wheel thing..... well I can't see how that could possibly be electrical related. Sounds more environmental to me. Salt or other chemicals perhaps used in paving or other road work. The rubber in the tire would preclude all but the most insanely large voltages from passing, and the lug nut is not the shortest path to.... anything. GD You are right about my wording, thorough education brings communication skills - and patience to listen to others without prejudice.. The clutch grounding prob was a rusty coil on an old simple DL system problemed indeed. As for the wheel spinning stuff off- I have come to a conclusion I am pretty sure you can understand. I have built pc's for several years now, so I will use the simple terms I know. 60 hertz is easy to disperse at any given volts, as long as it is 60 hertz- diff hertz can even fly through the same layer and maintain independence. Add computer with a fast clock- it is not so easy- it all stays in same system until it is time to give it a stop (ground) .The fast hertz can even fly though the air and keep going for some time (like a cell phone - that is an extreme example, the ecu hertz is of course is supposed to be easily maintainable). Pc's love the battery and fan as a killer of this (to this very day- since the beginning of pcs.) For just putting it to ground is not easy. My pc has proven year in and out for 9 now. Coincidentally my car does the same things as my pc at the same time every year- and I put two things together. The 60 hertz layer to ground is avoided by higher hertz and it *will* go out on its own- you are very correct to mention ground wires as a source of problem, but it isn't. Strangely enough it just happens to target my rear left wheel (unlike the carbed sube). Fast hertz will hit something moving before it likes cold steel not moving and it also likes channels of heat because the environment is fast. The volts may be long gone at this point- it is then the invisible to see and catch like an antennae. I hope this explanation was simple enough. I wonder if a small pc fan near ecu would get the "it" I am talking about. For now, however,it truly is cleaning my car up electrically, and could be my very thoughts as to why the same steel body with the same years on it as my carbed old one- is in much much better shape in the same body eating salty roads of Maine.The computer shakes it off like a dog after a dive in a pond micronically.I would love to know the hertz speed for the ECU- :-\ Could someone bridge this conversation? The newer cars have much more plastics around bottoms of them- I bet taking thier computers into consideration. We've got old steel classics with modern stuff (if ECU'd) and it does indeed do something different because of it - and it can be seen and revealed if you have a metal foot and been struck by lightning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundeye Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Is "it" anything like static build up on aircraft? I've seen strange electrical anomolies on customers' aircraft that were missing static wicks. Maybe you could install bonding jumpers on hood, trunk and doors along with static wicks trailing from the rear bumper? Any local F.B.O. should have regular old static wicks on hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 great, that made wonderful sense... like i said, i knew just about enough to know you were talking just a hair over my head. I think youre right, but then again your post and statements are expanding my knowledge/thoughts/opinions in this matter, so my opinion might be a bit biased to be honest bgd, i had pegged you just about as you made yourself out to be in this thread... someone who knew a GREAT deal more than i probly ever will about the systems that integrate to form an automobile as a whole. The shadetree approach is to the car, as a unit, and the subsystems as such.. but the technician/engineers' approach is to the systems, and underlying theories as a whole first, and then how they relate to the car/aircraft in question. By that definition, I doubt i will ever graduate beyond "shadetree." I also have to agree with GD that it probably WOULD be a bit easier to understand some of your points face-to-face-to-car, than thru the posts, but a second read through, looking between the lines (and occasionally checking for subtle spelling errors that may have caused misunderstanding, no offense) almost always makes it easier to get tho. keyboards are an awkward medium, and i feel very often that statements I make on message boards, especially detailed or technical ones, are probably not well understood by alot of people who read them. I am still failing to grok the whole body rust to current connection... and thats a shame because it has nailed my car to a tree to dry.... i REALLY need to get pics of the rust on my car. when i do everyone will understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 The subject isn't easy. I'd rather try typing on my keynoard made for little fingers (I am constantly hitting backspace button to fix two keys pressed at once errors.) I have literally inherited cars with decent mileage a regular mechanic would call "physics'd" - mileage decent, body decent. Strange stuff happening all the way to nuclear type stuff squeezing out to make for a strange day.There is something real weird sometimes. This Loyale is one of them. To finish the explanation of this loyale strangely- The fpu type electrical is floating, now I can target the dark threads that attacked the invisible perfect lightbulb they call the electrical system. On a carbed engine - oh no- the 2 dollar choke isn't rheostatical anymore. On this car and being all steel, it is in fact quite tricky with an ECU. I am certain it was an underpowered condition for a looong time that literally sucked in chemistry of the battery.All things recovered except for an occasional sticky tps (throttle position sensor). I knew I won it back after seeing that stuff squeezing out of the studs on my back left wheel (I have had to change that recently- it bent in the driveway overnight one night, not even able to go down the road above 50mph without it thumping the whole car - strangest encounter yet with that freaky invisible I knew darn well was happening). It just may have been a super radon I burped out of it.I had been knocked out already by something of that sort when I first got under this car on my first run, to hear the lower end noises and make a judgement.Very powerful and airless- and "it" didn't care if I was a living entity or not. I never gave up.... it payed off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrap487 Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 hmmm... start up a sube circus freak show... this is definately one of those things someone would have to see. Probably not possible to get some kind of video of this in action??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elroy Jetson Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Guys you know that old subes switch to ground alot instead of to positive. That means that there's 12 volts at everything, lights, radio, fuel pump, etc. Stuff jus waiting for a ground connection. That puts 12 volt cathodes everywhere you look on these cars. Every time one gets damp, metal starts to dissolve away or corrode. If one of those cathodes happens to be the coil lead, well... But, then again, if the rotor starts arcing to the post, well that will give the whole chassis a tickle. I've had 3 different cars with arcing rotors. replacing the rotor may eliminate some static buildup. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meeky Moose Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 get a pc tech's ground strap and atacth it to your body somewhere and then to a suitable spot in the car for grouding.. essentially grounding yourself to the car.. should fix the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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