misledxcracker Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 oh and brake fluid and cleaner really hurt your eyes bad!! I'd imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 Allright im totaly mad, and sad, She stops, but, The Pedal goes to the floor, I bled the system throughly, and it makes pressure perfectly when I pump it with the car off, when I took it out for a spin, it cant even Lock the fronts up, the pedal turns to mush. oh and the E-brake is really snug, I think the two are related but I dont know... HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 beataru: save yourself some headache and frustration, and go buy 12 feet of clear vinyl tubing the size of your bleeders, get a 2 liter bottle, and open up each bleeder, one at a time, in the prescribed sequence, and just pump, pump, pump, then go back to your vinyl tube and look for air bubbles. if there are ANY still in the tube, top off your reservoir and pump, pump until the ENTIRE tube is clear. once the tube is clear, proceed to the next brake. As long as there is some brake fluid in the tube (there will be as soon as you push the pedal the first time) it will NOT suck air back up into the caliper/wheel cylinder. Speed bleeders are nice... but at like, ten bucks a pop its a little procey for something that just makes laziness OK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Does the pedal go down super easy? Or do you have to smash it down to get the car to stop? If it goes down super easy then you need to bleed. If it's hard, and your E-brake is tight, then you may have the pads bound up. Turning in the calipers will not re-adjust your E-brake. You do that with the cable. I suggest you take it back apart and start over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I can tell you from experience, you have a bad master cylinder. It is easy to replace. I had the same problem about a month ago, replaced the brakes and calipers and still had a bad pedal. Removed the master cylinder and it was leaking at the rear seal. Replaced the unit and have great braking now. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 As far as the e-brake is concerned, I have NEVER had to adjust it. It is self adjusting. A few pumps of the brakes and it should be right where it belongs. If you had dificulty in screwing the pistons back in you may have a sticking caliper, but I doubt it. I've replaced many brake sets on these cars and oly found one bad caliper and that was from excessive heat on my wifes car. She is heavy footed on the brakes. My vote will stay with the master cylinder until proven otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 i doubt its the slave, It makes perfect pressure when the car is of, but it takes a few pumps, The pedal makes pressure when I pump it for a while but then it goes to the floor when I am driving, I CANT LOCK THE TIRES, But the E-brake is perfectly snug mabey a little too snug, I hope that it just needs another good bleed, Why would my master go out right when i do my brakes?? I dont think blueroo like me right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemaker13 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Your caliper pistons arn't now leaking are they? Perhaps you tore some thing up while turning the pistons w/ channellocks, probably not though. I'd look for leaks around your work areas. Other than that, sounds like a leaky master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 Your caliper pistons arn't now leaking are they? Perhaps you tore some thing up while turning the pistons w/ channellocks, probably not though. I'd look for leaks around your work areas. Other than that, sounds like a leaky master. I am not loosing fluid, It stays there, I bled them again, and again, and it still feels like mush... my bro in law is on his way over here to fix what I have done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvexplorer Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Maybe your brake lines are starting to deteriorate and stretch when you step on the brakes. Definitly worth looking into at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Mine wasn't losing a significant amount of fluid either, but it was still the master cylinder. All the symptoms you describe are related to a master cylinder failure. It may just be coincidental that it happened during the brake job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 the "special" tool for turning in the pistons is cheap and readily available at most auto parts stores or can be ordered online.... looks like this: http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=APO&MfrPartNumber=T71921&CategoryCode=3479 each side has a diferent configuration for doing many different sizes...the thing fits nicely on a 3/8" drive ratchet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 Im betting that it is not my master, my brakes worked fine before I tinkered with the system, that would be a 1 in 1 billionclamillionsatillion chance, but, I wouldnt put it past my luck, I am betting on an air bubble, My bro in law says that it wouldnt take much air to make it feel like it does, although i bled my lines religiously, the complicity of the system does make me thing that its air, oh and although I had my brakes fully flushed with clear fluid, as I was bleeding them last night, somewhere some how, a big glob of nasty fluid came from the bowells of my system and decided to come out... That made me laugh, It was perfectly clear, and then POOF dark watersoaked fluid shot out,. so I should have it good by tonight, mybro inlaw is coming with about 5 liters of Bremsflussigkeit Dot 4 "Liquide de frein" sorry just typing whats on the bottle, on the plus side, I can go to school today because my car wont stop!!!!! oh and he said that other than the bubble somewhere, my calipers arnt sticking, so I guess I did a good job other than letting amillion bubbles hide in my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 When you compressed the pistons back in, did you open the resevour? If not, you have blown out the rear seal on the master. The brake system on these old Subs is not complex in any way and bleeding should be a snap. Why you got the ddark brown goop, I have no idea. I hope I am wrong and the master is still good, but with all of the time you have spent bleeding the systems you could have gotten a used one and replaced it and you would be sure of the integrity of the system. When my master went there was no sign of a leak until I actually got it off. I had it replaced in about 45 minutes and that included bleeding the system. If you realy want to do a through job of bleeding, you should use a vaccuum pump hooked up to the bleeder screws and actually poull the new fluid down to the caliper or wheel cylinder. Good luck and I hope you get this figured out soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 How did you get air the lines anyway? get a 12 or 16 oz soda bottle, drill a small hole in the cap, insert about two feet of clear vinyl tubing just big enough to fit over the bleeder screw tightly, untill it touches the bottom of the bottle. Put the other end on the bleeder. Open the bleeder about 1/4 turn, fill the master cylinder reservoir, and pump about ten times. Refill reservoir, and repeat. Do this on each corner and you'll be right. The fluid in the botom of the bottle will be sucked up into the system instead of air so you don't need a second person to pump the brake pedal or open the bleeder and get sprayed in the eyes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 17, 2007 Author Share Posted March 17, 2007 OK so, I might have gotten air in the Lines, I accidentally opend the drivers front side bleeder, and let fluid, gravitly escape, air in the system, YA THINK??? Im at my bro in laws shop and we are furiously bleeding the system with millions of bubbles that are microscopic, but there getting out, Every tech in the shop agrees that it is not the master, its air, I got a quote on a new master, 125.99 (yeah right) thats 1/10 of my cars worth, and Im a starving student so I think Ill wait to see how it goes with the bleeding, by the by, does anyone know a way to bleed the hill holder?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank B Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 About the hill holder, I've never touched it while bleeding the system. Maybe pump up the system then barely loosen the lines (one at a time) and close before the pedal reaches the floor. You should be able to find a master cylinder cheaper than that. Maybe on Ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psylosyfer Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 148 front 145 rear (ft.lbs) spindle nuts (4wd only) Fwd rear torque much 40ft/lbs. I heard, but not sure! Am 100% sure of 4wd spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 There all ready on but, thanks I'll use that for next time, Update: My car is spending the Night at Porsche, We took off the exhaust and found the largest crack a pipe could have without falling apart, were furiously welding and cutting to make new 4 bolt flanges onto the existing flanges, my car will be back together by the end of this week, Mabey even tomarrow, but thats pushing it, As far as the Brakes go, they stop, just not good, the pedal still feels like mush, but if I have to I will swipe the Master of off the 86 Beataru in my carport, Unless I can get a good deal, I have found them on ebay, So I'm waiting on that one, well see.... Everything I touch on this car falls to pieces, oh well... its old, and understandable... thanks for all the help guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I will repeat...... it is your master cylinder. You have bled the system to death. The hill holder will bleed along with the rest of the system, so you don't have to do anything special. Get a Master from a junkyard. Look at the rear seal and if it is dry then you are golden. If you cannot find one, let me know and I can get you one and I bet it will be around 25.00 with shipping to Arizona. I realize that the shop experts all agree that the master is not the problem, but I have been through this with people telling me that same thing. I replaced the master and Bingo the problem is solved. Stop pleying around and wasting time doing the same thing over and over. As far as bleeding is concerned, the shop should have a vaccuum pump for bleeding and that is the fastest way to do it. Personally I just open the resevior and gravity bleed the brakes one wheel at a time. you don't have to pump the brakes, but it does go faster that way. Call me if you want some info. 804-393-0516 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 MDJC, what makes you so sure of the Master being bad? Doesn't make sense that it would go bad all of a sudden after new pads. BTW, Turbo models have discs in the Rear, so Daeron did not need to be poked at for a valid question. Have you checked you're rear brakes? They have a limited adjustment built in. When they are really worn they have to travel very far to hit the drum. I have seen soft pedals in GLs and loyales from this many, many times. Actually I know someone who replaced his master cylinder when actually rear shoes where his problem. Check you're rear brakes beataru. You will have to undo the castle nut on the rear to remove the drum. is you're car 2wd or 4wd.? 2wd uses a simple tapered bearing. When retightening it don't go to tight. 40-50 ft/lbs. Make sure it still spins freely. If you have a 4wd, it will need to be much tighter, 150 ft/lbs. There are 2 different styles of 4wd rear wheel bearings. Some are tappered sets, and some are a big single roller. The roller style you can't really overtighten, since the load never compresses the roller. Down side is you can't tighten it if it gets loose. The tappered style of 4wd bearing can be overloaded. It does need to be tight, very tight. But don't go so tight it doesn't spin freely. just as tight as you can get and still have it rotate smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Heres what Im thinking, i dont even know if I already said this but... When I opend up the drivers front side bleeder, after that, I had to jack the car up with a floor jack from each side and from front to back several times, because I only have 2 jack stands, so what I am thinking is that the bubbles or bubble (it takes the tinyest bubble to do this to the pedal) moved all the way into a line that has a lot of bends in it, so, once the car has its header re welded and can start up and drive, I think I am going to investigate this theory of mine, I need a pressure bleeder to fix this problem instantly, but the shop only had a vaccum bleader, and my bro in law and a few others who where there say that vaccum are not nearly as good as the pressure bleeders, so they cant get that bubble out...blahblahblahblahblah....... Oh my car is 4x4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 i did not pour through the pages of replies, but if you're bleeding and bleeding and still getting lots of air bubbles that don't go away and have a mushy pedal then i agreew with MJDC - replace the master cylinder. seen it before, it's the only thing i've seen cause this situation. yes i'm sure there are other things, but that's the experience i've had. subaru master cylinders rarely fail, i've never actually had to replace one on a soob..other cars yes, soobs never. i'd be perfectly content installing a used one if price is an issue. they are very easy to install and you can probably score one from the group for free or next to nothing. if you needed one from an XT6 and i was in MD (with all my parts), i'd send you one for little to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 well, heres the thing, all there is in a master cylinder is a bunch of o-rings, so why not go buy or, take from a certain auto dealer that I know of.... good quality o-rings and replace them... I do have a doner car, and guess what guys saying that IT HAS TO BE THE MASTER!!! If its not, and I replace it, and it is the bubble just sitting there, then replacing the master will do anything but solve it, it could make it worse, I would be letting more air in the system, so then potentially more air will get caught........... so no, the master will not fix this if its not the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Gloyale: He said that the car is a GL-10 not a GL-10 turbo and therefore it has drum brakes not discs. I agree that the rear brakes could be the problem, but only if the wheel cylinders are leaking. Good luck beataru, I hope you get this problem fixed. It sounds like the car is unsafe to drive right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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