Gravityman Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Hey Subaru Freaks. Here is a question for the guru's. Has anyone ever tried or even looked at running a dry sump oil pump setup on their subaru engine whether it be an EA, ER, EJ, EZ...whatever? I know that they are normally used on track, drag and some rally. They also eliminate the huge oil pump pan and replace it with a shorter pan (which I will fabricate). I have not purchased a new oil pump for the ER27 twin turbo :burnout:build. I could just use the stock oil pump that I have and clean it up but I want something more reliable (not saying that the oil pump is unreliable) for the build that I am doing. I am going to need a set of hoses running to both turbos and oil coolers. I know the sumps are very expensive new but ebay has tons for less then $300. I already have the oil lines, I would just need fittings. I have seen these run directly off the cams in american blocks. I was maybe thinking about removing and modifing the cybrid power steering pump motor to couple to the dry sump pump. That would remove the power steering pump and the oil pump from the engine, leaving the alternator and water pump attached to the rotating assembly. I would of course leave the stock oil pump in its location but just remove the oil pump gears. I am just learning about how dry sump oil pumps work but I have a pretty good understanding on how they are put together. Do worry about listing basic information about them if you got it, every little bit of info help me and others. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 there was a guy not too long ago having problems with his dry-sumped EA81 in an ultra-light. I'll look around and see if I can find it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 I wouldn't trust the Oil Pump to be run off of the cybrid power steering motor. If something happened to the electrical system, you would lose oil pressure. At least with the pump run off of the d/s cam belt, if it snaps and you lose oil pressure, the engine stops running. That and the cybrid power steering motors aren't exactly the most reliable... Why exactly do you want to go to a dry sump oil pump anyways? What would the advantage be over installing a much cheaper and easier to use factory oil pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 Ground clearance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 Ground clearance <-- That for racing, reduce the chance of losing oil due oil slosh and the lack of oil in the oil pan due to the increased amount of oil required to run 2 turbos and oil coolers. The oil does not sit in the bottom of the engine where it retains the heat of the motor, instead it is stored outside of the engine allowing it to cool better which will cool the engine more efficiantly. Ok here this is a good bit of info and a little of what I am trying to say; Dry sump systems have several important advantages over wet sumps: Because a dry sump does not need to have an oil pan big enough to hold the oil under the engine, the main mass of the engine can be placed lower in the vehicle. This helps lower the center of gravity and can also help aerodynamics (by allowing a lower hoodline). The oil capacity of a dry sump can be as big as you want. The tank holding the oil can be placed anywhere on the vehicle. In a wet sump, turning, braking and acceleration can cause the oil to pool on one side of the engine. This sloshing can dip the crankshaft into the oil as it turns or uncover the pump's pick-up tube. Excess oil around the crankshaft in a wet sump can get on the shaft and cut horsepower. Some people claim improvements of as much as 15 horsepower by switching to a dry sump. The disadvantage of the dry sump is the increased weight, complexity and cost from the extra pump and the tank -- but that's a small price to pay for such big benefits! Who knows mabe I will drop the engine an inch or 2. Just a thought, but who knows??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 So anyway this is another idea I was throwing around but I am scared that it might create to much drag on the camshaft. Normally they are mounted on the cam pulley. I am going to be running the MS EDIS so I would not need my disty anymore, I have been wondering what to do with the large freakish hole without a disty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Only problem I see with that would be pump to frame rail clearance. It would probably need to be behing the head, yet to the side of the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 I was actually thinking about that after I started drawing the pic. I am going to be running my exhaust right where the pump is. Do you think that the pump being driven by the camshaft will cause too much drag on one side? I am removing the disty and the stock oil pump from the timing belt which would help free up some drag. I am just nervous that with the added horse power the belts might start slipping. I am installing an entirly new timing belt pulley setup so every thing will be fresh not 20 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I was actually thinking about that after I started drawing the pic. I am going to be running my exhaust right where the pump is. Do you think that the pump being driven by the camshaft will cause too much drag on one side? I am removing the disty and the stock oil pump from the timing belt which would help free up some drag. I am just nervous that with the added horse power the belts might start slipping. I am installing an entirly new timing belt pulley setup so every thing will be fresh not 20 years old. That is a good point for the distributer hole. If you knew how much force it would take to turn the pump. And compared it to say maybe the force of a water pump from an ej series. I could be just spitting in the wind, but it might give an idea of forces on the timing belt. Care to shed a little light on the new belt setup? Or is that a later installment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 That is a good point for the distributer hole. If you knew how much force it would take to turn the pump. And compared it to say maybe the force of a water pump from an ej series. I could be just spitting in the wind, but it might give an idea of forces on the timing belt. Care to shed a little light on the new belt setup? Or is that a later installment? OOh the joys of trying to engineer a part to fit on a 20 year old car! :-\ I am not actually changing how the belt setup is, I am just buying all new tensioners, tensioner pulleys and idler pulleys. If you havent noticed, when you listen to your car on the front end of the block you can hear metal grinding, its the sound of old worn out bearing that are robbing you engine of power. That is what I am replacing. Once I get all the parts I will post it in the hyperbalic thread. This is what the gears in the dry sump pump looks like. In an N/A car you would have either 2 sets of gears that would pull oil from the oil pan and pump it to the oil tank. Then one gear that would draw oil from the tank run it through a filter and then into the engine. For the turbo's I would add another set of gears one to scavange oil from the turbos and one that would pump to the oil cooler then through another oil filter and then "Y" out to the turbos. So I guess that I would need a 5 stage pump. Next to figure out how to plump the thing to the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 I had an epiphany while jamming to some tunes on the way to work tonight. I have one of these moroso electric water pump motors that I purchased a little while back. I had no specific plans for it but I knew that I wanted to use it to run either the oil or water pump. Now it is obvious why I bought it. The second part of this epiphany was that I have always wanted to be able to primer my oil system prior to every startup that way I have less wear on the internals and no turbo oil starvation issues. This is nearly impossible with the oil pump hooked up directly to the timing belt. With It hooked up to an electric motor I will be able to start the oil flowing before the engine even starts up. As far as electric motor reliability goes I will have an oil pressure gauge in the car. I might even rig up a way to use the cybrid pumps electric motor to run the oil pump full time and keep the moroso motor on standby with a build in clutch. I also plan to run a fault detect; this would turn on the moroso motor and take over the oil pumps operation if it notices either a huge drop in oil pressure or if it notices a short or open in the cybrid pump. I will also rig up a electrical interupt that would keep the engines ignition from cranking if the oil or fuel is not turned on first or if I lose power to one of the systems. Also, obviously it would free up a few horsepower on the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 I hate you!!!Now I rant to rig up dry sump now.Use stock oil pump as scavage pump and then electric back to engine with oil pressure gauge.If oil is low or drops shut engine off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 26, 2007 Author Share Posted March 26, 2007 Not a bad idea. The only problem is the electric oil pumps are almost as expensive as the dry sump it self minus all the others parts required. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 what about a fuel pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 I'd be worried about using an electric fuel or water pump for this. since the oil is so much thicker, it may cause problems. it may not aswell....I don't know for sure, but it's certainly something to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
970subaru Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 i talked to a guy who was using a fuel pump to scavenge the oil from the turbo on his drag bike, but didnt get any real specifics. a drag bike would be a lot more forgiving to this type of thing than a hot street car running the pump continuously for a while rather than just enough time to stage, do a lap and get back to the pit. oil is going to have way better lubricity than gas through a pump but is also going to be way hotter and more viscous. I'd say its too tough to call. what about something like a GM hydroboost pump? those things can put out some serious pressure/flow and are cheap. gravityman, with the amount of other custom stuff you are doing, I'd aim for the KISS method and run the stock pump unless it becomes an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravityman Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 Ok so here is my plan. Criticize away! I drew this up really quick so its not to scale in any way and the parts are not in the exact position but it will give you an idea of how I want to plumb the Dry Sump. Since I was first criticized for my original plans about running the pump off of an electric motor I decided to run a belt driven pump with a secondary electric pump. The belt driven pump will run durring all operations while the engine is started. It is ran off of the same pulley as the stock oil pump with an extension. The electric pump will be used to prime the engine and both turbos and to use with a turbo timer durring post cool down. This is how it will work. Before the car is started I will momentarily press a button that will turn on the electric oil pump for priming. The oil will flow from the rear oil tank through to a check valve, into the E-pump through another check valve into the oil filter -> oil cooler -> and then into a 3 way junction; 2 = each turbo and 1 = to the engine. This is the same path for cooldown but it will be ran by a turbo timer once ignition is terminated. The check valves prevent oil from going into the electric pump while engine is running and vice versa. Once the engine is started it will flow as so; The oil pump will scavange oil from the shallow dry sump pan via 2 hoses and from both turbos via a "T" junction. This oil will flow through the oil pump back into the oil storage tank. The oil will then be sucked from the oil tank and pumped through the oil pump -> through a check valve -> into the oil filter -> oil cooler -> 3 way junction; both turbos and engine -> oil sump pan. I really hope this is understandable. I have looked for many diagrams that discribed how to plumb turbos with a dry sump oil pump but no one has one. First here is a list of all the parts by their color. Yellow = Oil storage tank Grey = Sump pump Purple = Oil filter Green = Oil cooler Light Blue = Secondary oil pump Brown = stock oil pump with remote oil filter hookup Green w/blue band cylinders = oil check valves (blue band denotes direction of flow, blue band blocks oncoming flow) Dark blue = scavanging line Red = pressureized oil sending lines Circle turbo looking things on the side = turbos:-\ Triangular box under the oil pump = shallow dry sump pan ================================================================================== ================================================================================== ================================================================================== ================================================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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