PonchoCatalina Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I have been working on my 91 Loyale wagon (4WD) for the last six months, gradually fixing things. I finally got everything working satisfactorily to pass my safety inspection this weekend, however, I have now discovered something new (potentially) to contend with. Since I now have a nice new inspection sticker in the window, I actually have been able to drive the car beyond my immediate neighborhood. So, while driving with my wife, she started noticing noises I probably would have been content to ignore. The first thing she pointed out was kind of a roaring noise, seemingly from the driver's side front, when we got above 30 mph. I'm thinking the wheel bearing is shot. The other thing she pointed out was that when driving over speed bumps, the front end made a banging noise everytime we crossed a bump (on the "descent" side of the bump). This too seemed to be from the driver's side, but I'm not entirely sure. Could the banging also be caused by a bad wheel bearing, or is there something more likely I should look at, like a worn axle joint? I'm just looking for any tips that might help me diagnose these noises. This is my first foray into the realm of Subaru supsensions. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 First replace that wheel bearing. The banging when the suspension unload can be the play in the bearing. Jack up the tire and see how much play is in it. Subaru wheel bearings can develop a lot of play in them before they finally give out (been there done that, three times). nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The first thing she pointed out was kind of a roaring noise, seemingly from the driver's side front, when we got above 30 mph. I'm thinking the wheel bearing is shot. The other thing she pointed out was that when driving over speed bumps, the front end made a banging noise everytime we crossed a bump (on the "descent" side of the bump). This too seemed to be from the driver's side, but I'm not entirely sure. The roaring is quite possibly the wheel bearing going dry. If it's not sloppy yet there is hope. If you pull off the Brake rotor and hub, you can regrease that bearing. Use a grease needle on a gun to get grease all the way through the outer bearing, and into the inner one. You can "pack" it in by pressing the hub on, removing, filling with more grease, repeat. Until the grease starts coming out around the back side of the knuckle where the axle goes through. As far as the knocking sound, that sounds like a balljoint. Perhaps a tie rod. but either way they are cheap and easy to replace. It's a good idea to do both sides at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indrid cold Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 "Roaring noise", ???? sounds like it could be bearings... no biggie to replace those if that's what it is. Possibly loose axel nut? "The banging noise?" ??? no idea right off. Take your foot and push on the top of the tire, get the car to wiggle and see if you can notice any excess movement, also do this with it in the air, jack up front and grab the tire and move up/down left/right and check for any excessive movement. With car on proper supports, lay under neath and look for missing bolts, wiggle the joint, tie rods and check the Ball joints by prying on them... (I think that needs to be done with car on the ground.) Assure the 3 bolts on top of the strut mounts (found under hood) are tight, also wiggle any rubber bushings etc... and I'm spent....... My .02 cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonchoCatalina Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Thanks for the feedback! The idea about ball joints causing the banging sound makes a lot of sense to me. I'm thinking it might be sensible to just replace inner and outer wheel bearings, tie-rod ends, and ball joints while I've got the whole thing apart. From searching posts, I've discovered that Autozone's Timken bearings are a great price-meets-quality item, but what about ball joints and tie-rod ends - any recommendations for sourcing? Thanks again! - Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Thanks for the feedback! The idea about ball joints causing the banging sound makes a lot of sense to me. I'm thinking it might be sensible to just replace inner and outer wheel bearings, tie-rod ends, and ball joints while I've got the whole thing apart. From searching posts, I've discovered that Autozone's Timken bearings are a great price-meets-quality item, but what about ball joints and tie-rod ends - any recommendations for sourcing? Thanks again!- Ian We dont get alot of ball jopint failures. Last time i rebuilt a suabru front end i just ordered everything from JC Whitney. I havent heard anything bad about tie rod ends or ball joints from anyone (there is probably only one or two mfgs for them), so you can get them from anywhere. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 best advice I can give is to remove the old tie rod ends and ball joints, and bring them to the store to match up against what you purchase. I got the wrong tie rod ends for mine, when I ordered initially, and had to go back to the store. They looked very close even on a side by side comparison, but the tie rod ends I got had larger diameter "spline" on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Even very worn ball joints rarely make noises in that manner. Their slop is horizontal, not vertical. Same with tie rod ends. Also at that mileage it's not likely unless a boot is torn. Generally tie rod ends and ball joints cause the car to wander or to steer with the gas pedal and brake. I would look at the bolts attaching the leading rod to the control arm, and the leading rod bushings. Also the control arm bushings, and the strut tops as well as the strut to knuckle interface. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 And of course exhaust hangers ..... nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Even very worn ball joints rarely make noises in that manner. Their slop is horizontal, not vertical. Same with tie rod ends. GD I've seen it many times. as you go "up" the speedbump, the knuckle is forced upward quickly, and the weight transfers off of the control arm. This stretches the post out of the socket in the ball joint. As the vehicle weigh shifts back down, the socket "pops" back down onto the ball joint shaft. The TEST for a ball joint is to try to put a prybar between the knuckle and control arm, and see if you can get the arm to pry downward from the Knuckle. That is Vertical motion, is it not? Bad ball joints do produce a certain amount of horizontal "slide" aswell, but it's a BALL joint. as in SPHERE. as in any slop at all will be slop in all directions, vertical and horizontal. Ball joints having slop WILL cause a knocking or popping over bumps. It's excacerbated by worn shocks. and with Tie-rods, hitting a bump can make the wheels turn first out then in to whatever degree slop in the tierod will allow. With tierods ussually you will hear it when turning the wheel one way then ther other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonchoCatalina Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 Well, I'll definitely try the pry test before I write off the ball joints. I can say that the car tracks very true - I can take my hands off the wheel and it doesn't wander a bit. The bang coming "down" a speed bump is very pronounced and repeatable, though, so I'll look at the entire suspension for anything loose, worn bushings, etc. Thanks again for all the feedback. - Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 It doesn't work that way in practice. The ball joints generally fail because of lateral force from cornering. The wear is on the inner and outer sides of the sphere. All the worn ball joints I've replaced showed no play using the pry-bar method. They do however have a lot of play in and out when you grasp the wheel and pull. It's true that it is possible for them to fail as you describe, but it takes contamination from road grit or sand to do it. If the boot is good they fail the way I describe. Regardless they rarely make noise as he describes - they cause odd steering behavoir which he makes no mention of. Also your "weight transfer" theory doesn't work on a Subaru as the sway bar holds the control arm to the knuckle tightly. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Regardless they rarely make noise as he describes - they cause odd steering behavoir which he makes no mention of. Also your "weight transfer" theory doesn't work on a Subaru as the sway bar holds the control arm to the knuckle tightly. GD BAll joints do make EXCACTLY that noise. I am telling you about first hand experience. They do not always cause odd steering. And if both wheels hit a bump toghether like a speedbump, the swaybar doesn't do anything but move with the control arm. Only when there is uneven motion or "sway" that the bar transfers any force. It's not a theory. It is what happens. This is my direct experience with this excact same condition and symtoms, in not one, but many Subarus, both EA82s and Legacies. I am really getting tired of you trying to dispute every single thing I post. I will say again, you are not the only one with experience or knowledge of these machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Pry bar doesnt work if the balljoints are spring loaded or in some configurations. With single ball joints you can see the movement by moving the wheel. You can alos check for tie rod play this way too (and wheel bearings). If you arwent used to it you may need one person to move the tire and the other to look at the components. If you are doing this on jack stands, dont get under the car while moving the wheel. Can you reproduce this sound by bouncing on the car? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I am really getting tired of you trying to dispute every single thing I post. You can be tired of it all you like - that's your perogative. However as long as my expereince contradics what you say, I'll continue to do so. I will say again, you are not the only one with experience or knowledge of these machines. Nope - I'm the guy that's owned twice as many soobs as you, and has 8,000 more posts than you do. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonchoCatalina Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 Pry bar doesnt work if the balljoints are spring loaded or in some configurations. With single ball joints you can see the movement by moving the wheel. You can alos check for tie rod play this way too (and wheel bearings). If you arwent used to it you may need one person to move the tire and the other to look at the components. If you are doing this on jack stands, dont get under the car while moving the wheel. Can you reproduce this sound by bouncing on the car? nipper Nipper, I could not reproduce the sound by bouncing the fenders - only a slight rubbery squeaking on both sides which I took to be the anti-sway bar bushings flexing. Definitely no banging. P.S. - Now I have a mental image of Nipper laughing out loud and saying "Hey - I just got some idiot in Texas to go outside in the dark and bounce up and down on the hood of his car - man, the internet is great!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 You can be tired of it all you like - that's your perogative. However as long as my expereince contradics what you say, I'll continue to do so. Nope - I'm the guy that's owned twice as many soobs as you, and has 8,000 more posts than you do. GD And I'm the guy who bought my first one before you had a liscence. Maybe you have owned more, that just means you've had less experience with each one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Nipper,I could not reproduce the sound by bouncing the fenders - only a slight rubbery squeaking on both sides which is I took to be the anti-sway bar bushings flexing. Definitely no banging. P.S. - Now I have a mental image of Nipper laughing out loud and saying "Hey - I just got some idiot in Texas to go outside in the dark and bounce up and down on the hood of his car - man, the internet is great!!!" Hehehe you have no idea how many people i can get to drive in circles too Is this a sharp noise or more of a muffled thump. How are your tires wearing? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonchoCatalina Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 Hehehe you have no idea how many people i can get to drive in circles too Is this a sharp noise or more of a muffled thump. How are your tires wearing? nipper I would say more of a muffled thump (my wife concurs). It's almost like something is bottoming out - maybe a bad strut? Tire wear looks okay - no uneven wear, cupping, etc. that I can detect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I would say more of a muffled thump (my wife concurs). It's almost like something is bottoming out - maybe a bad strut? Tire wear looks okay - no uneven wear, cupping, etc. that I can detect. (i love this part) Go back outside and count the bounces on all 4 courners of the car (tries not to giggle) nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Maybe you have owned more, that just means you've had less experience with each one. That's related both to the mileage I put on them, and their initial state of (dis)repair. Almost without exception I bought them inches from being scrap because I'm not afraid of repairing anything. My current DD was $100 out of someone's front yard. I also put about 25,000 - 30,000 miles on my DD every year. And none of this is considering all the local's (board members and otherwise) vehicles that I work on, the modifications I've done, the swaps, lifts, repairs, etc. Or my experience as a mechanic in the Army....etc, etc. But yeah - sure, whatever you say old man. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I would say more of a muffled thump (my wife concurs). It's almost like something is bottoming out - maybe a bad strut? Tire wear looks okay - no uneven wear, cupping, etc. that I can detect. Take a look at the leading rod bushings..... and the mud splash guards aren't loose hitting the tire are they? GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I also put about 25,000 - 30,000 miles on my DD every year. GD :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I do that every 6 months! My soobs cross the country regularly. And I'm not an old man. Just older than you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Ball joints. Possibly made worse by bad struts. That is all I am going to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I do that every 6 months! My soobs cross the country regularly. And I'm not an old man. Just older than you Good times. You probably start with better examples than me - I'm poor . I've done WAY too many things in my short life. It's sad really, but I'll find my niche eventually I suppose. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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