96 Legacy Coolant Loss

[JStamberg]

I've searched the other threads, but I haven't found anything yet that seems to help where I'm at. Any advice is appreciated:

 

1 year ago I bought a 96 Legacy LS (2.2 Liter, Auto-trans), with about 185,000 miles on it. Last fall the radiator blew and I drove it a short time with it detonating before I realized what was going on.... the engine actually quit on me while going up a hill (I'm a genius aren't I?).

 

The radiator and hoses were replaced, then a short time later the water pump was replaced. I've got about 201,000 miles on it now, and I've been doing several long trips recently (500+ miles), and my family will probably be doing A LOT of cross country travel in the next year (this is our only car).

 

Over the past month I've noticed a slow but steady coolant loss. Maybe every 200-300 miles I have to put an inch or two of coolant into the overflow tank. I'm not seeing any obvious external signs of coolant loss. I mentioned this situation to my mechanic and he said that a lot of Subarus have problems with the head gaskets, and that its worth getting fixed before we hit the road this next year.

 

I have a friend who has changed over 20 head gaskets on Hondas, but never before on a Subaru who is willing to help, but I don't want us to jump into a huge project when it isn't necessary either.

 

So here's a few questions:

1) Is there some idiot proof ways that I can check to insure that it is the head gaskets? I saw on one post something about a pressure test kit that you can rent from Autozone? Would exactly would that check? I haven't noticed white smoke from the tailpipe, but if I do, what does that tell me?

2) Are there some other likely culprits I should check out first, and how should I do that?

3) Should I just sell off the car while it still runs well?

4) It seems my in-town gas mileage is low (19-22 MPG), could this be related?

5) Since the leak isn't bad, should we just drive it and take our chances? We will be moving (away from my friend) in a few weeks.

 

Ok, I know that's a long post, I guess I would rather give too much info than not enough. Thanks for any and all help!!

[porcupine73]

A really simple thing to check would be the radiator cap. It needs to be in good shape and clean. Clean under those little rubber parts in the cap seal and the relief valve. And the mating portion to the radiator neck needs to be smooth too.

[johnceggleston]

one good way to check for hg leaks into the coolant, this will cause the over flow tank to over flow, is to do a hydrocarbon test on the coolant. i've not done it but i think you can get a kit. this will tell you if the exhaust/cylinder gases are leaking into the coolant and causing it to overflow. exhaust gases in the coolant will also produce bubbles in the coolant and muck in the radiator / overflow bottle.

 

you might also look for water or coolant in the oil when you change it. (light milky stuff almost like coffee with cream.) this another internal HG leak. although much less often.

 

but as stated above, a radiator cap is only 6 or 7$, a cheap repair. mine leaked but not until it reached full operating temp. i drove it home one day and let it idle in the driveway. sure enough, it started to drip. new cap, now no leak.

 

 

I've searched the other threads, but I haven't found anything yet that seems to help where I'm at. Any advice is appreciated:

 

1 year ago I bought a 96 Legacy LS (2.2 Liter, Auto-trans), with about 185,000 miles on it. Last fall the radiator blew and I drove it a short time with it detonating before I realized what was going on.... the engine actually quit on me while going up a hill (I'm a genius aren't I?).

 

The radiator and hoses were replaced, then a short time later the water pump was replaced. I've got about 201,000 miles on it now, and I've been doing several long trips recently (500+ miles), and my family will probably be doing A LOT of cross country travel in the next year (this is our only car).

 

Over the past month I've noticed a slow but steady coolant loss. Maybe every 200-300 miles I have to put an inch or two of coolant into the overflow tank. I'm not seeing any obvious external signs of coolant loss. I mentioned this situation to my mechanic and he said that a lot of Subarus have problems with the head gaskets, and that its worth getting fixed before we hit the road this next year.

 

I have a friend who has changed over 20 head gaskets on Hondas, but never before on a Subaru who is willing to help, but I don't want us to jump into a huge project when it isn't necessary either.

 

So here's a few questions:

1) Is there some idiot proof ways that I can check to insure that it is the head gaskets? I saw on one post something about a pressure test kit that you can rent from Autozone? Would exactly would that check? I haven't noticed white smoke from the tailpipe, but if I do, what does that tell me?

2) Are there some other likely culprits I should check out first, and how should I do that?

3) Should I just sell off the car while it still runs well?

4) It seems my in-town gas mileage is low (19-22 MPG), could this be related?

5) Since the leak isn't bad, should we just drive it and take our chances? We will be moving (away from my friend) in a few weeks.

 

Ok, I know that's a long post, I guess I would rather give too much info than not enough. Thanks for any and all help!!

[nipper]

Oi ...

 

First thing to do is replace the radiator cap.

 

Second thing is to train yourself to scan the dashboard and not read but locate visually the temp gauge needle to make sure its where its supposed to be.

 

Overheating any aluminum engine to the point of stalling is a horrible thing. Sometimes you luck out sometimes you dont. You should have also changed the oil at the time the raditor was replaced.

 

Radiators dont just blow up unless the pressure relief function of the radiator cap fails. i have never heard of one failing closed, usually they wont hold pressure (there is always a first time). Of course somone could have put the wrong cap on it.

 

There is only one other way for the cooling system to get pressurized, and thats with combustion gasses getting into the water jackets.

 

Your next step is going to be a wet and dry compression test (and tell us both sets of numbers). After that you get a coolant system leak down test.

 

This car needs to be gone over with a fine tooth comb before you leave the state. i dont want to make you paranoid, but im not convinced the reason for "blowing" the radiator was fully addressed.

 

I am aslo not a huge fan on replacing headgaskets on engines with over 180,000 miles on them (for other cars i use 150,000 as the cutoff). It really depends on what the compression test comes back with.

 

nipper

[xrturbo]

I agree with John. It isn't common but under circumstances like yours I have seen some Ej22 HG failures. That is deffinately the direction I would expect to end up going.

[JStamberg]

Alright, I'll get the compression tests and coolant pressure tests done after lunch today and post the results ASAP. Thanks for the info.

 

Yes, obviously I need to do a better job of scanning the temp gauge. that's one thing this whole ordeal has taught me.

 

I'll also be picking up a new radiator cap as well.

[Aspen]

It might be better to not do all those tests and instead just find a replacement 2.2l. Driving around with the HG leak is bad mojo for your valves and shortblock. You may end up having more failure shortly. I wouldn't trust that motor on long trips.

For the price of those tests and new HG you may be able to find a used motor.

 

If you do wish to check it out, the easy way is to look for black goop in the overflow tank and bubbles after a hard run.

[nipper]

It might be better to not do all those tests and instead just find a replacement 2.2l. Driving around with the HG leak is bad mojo for your valves and shortblock. You may end up having more failure shortly. I wouldn't trust that motor on long trips.

For the price of those tests and new HG you may be able to find a used motor.

 

If you do wish to check it out, the easy way is to look for black goop in the overflow tank and bubbles after a hard run.

 

That is not the definitive test for a bad HG its more of a fail/maybe test.

 

Sometimes there are no short cuts sometimes. I am not going to condemn a car (and no one should) on an assumption. Do the tests and let us know whats what.

 

nipper

[JStamberg]

The numbers are in:

 

Coolant system showed no signs of leakage (held 9 psi for about 10 minutes)

 

dry compression test:

1: 155, 2: 165, 3: 155, 4: 160

 

Wet:

1: 190, 2: 195, 3: 200, 4: 160

 

I also went ahead and replaced the radiator cap at the same time.

[nipper]

Seems like your rings took a bit of a hit from the overheat-stall situation.

 

Lets just hope it is just a radiator cap, but all the wet numbers hould have come up. From what i can tell #3 has the most ring wear, and #4 has the most valve wear.

 

As far as smoothness of the engine, all the numbers are good.

[JStamberg]

Seems like your rings took a bit of a hit from the overheat-stall situation.

 

Lets just hope it is just a radiator cap, but all the wet numbers hould have come up. From what i can tell #3 has the most ring wear, and #4 has the most valve wear.

 

As far as smoothness of the engine, all the numbers are good.

 

So any suggestions regarding going ahead with replacing the head gasket? Is it worth tearing into now (since I basically have free labor), or should I just let it go and hope it holds? Any other thoughts? If I'm going to do this, I'm going to need to start tearing into it this Thursday, due to our schedules.

 

Thanks again!

[nipper]

So any suggestions regarding going ahead with replacing the head gasket? Is it worth tearing into now (since I basically have free labor), or should I just let it go and hope it holds? Any other thoughts? If I'm going to do this, I'm going to need to start tearing into it this Thursday, due to our schedules.

 

Thanks again!

 

Lets see how the cap works out. Personally i would be leary of putting a new HG on with that one weak cylinder. I dont think you have an HG issue, from everything i've seen. i think you had a cap fail.

 

Now if you were to find a nother enigine, and start prepping that for the future, il'd go for that.

 

2.2L Dont usually get HG issues. The problem with the very begining of a HG issue is that it comes and goes in a subaru.

[JStamberg]

Thanks for the info, Nipper.

 

Just for the record, I realized that I may have oversimplified my findings on the coolant system pressure test. Specifically this is what happened: We put about 9 PSI on it for 10 minutes or so, it seemed to have gone down about 1/2 PSI (to 8.5) during that time. I assumed that wasn't anything to worry about, but one friend seemed to think otherwise...

[nipper]

Thanks for the info, Nipper.

 

Just for the record, I realized that I may have oversimplified my findings on the coolant system pressure test. Specifically this is what happened: We put about 9 PSI on it for 10 minutes or so, it seemed to have gone down about 1/2 PSI (to 8.5) during that time. I assumed that wasn't anything to worry about, but one friend seemed to think otherwise...

 

Yes that is something to worry about. Sounding like a HG now .

 

With those compression test numbers, if it was my car, i'ld look around at engines. Sounds like the rings took a hit.

 

Lets try one more thing. Can you get a vacum gauge on the engine. Tell us what its reading, and what the needle is doing.

 

nipper

[JStamberg]

Yes that is something to worry about. Sounding like a HG now .

 

With those compression test numbers, if it was my car, i'ld look around at engines. Sounds like the rings took a hit.

 

Lets try one more thing. Can you get a vacum gauge on the engine. Tell us what its reading, and what the needle is doing.

 

nipper

 

What's involved in the vacuum gauge test, can you "loan" those from autozone?

 

Someone else suggested putting the coolant dye in there and checking that out. I'll probably try and do that later this week.

 

Check out this engine, am I correct that this would work on my car? Its only 60 miles from where I live: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-SUBARU-LEGACY-2-2-ENGINE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ017QQitemZ270136207750QQrdZ1

 

Other suggestions on used engines? What do I need to look for in terms of compatibility or condition? (I have a 96 Legacy LS with the 2.2 liter)

[johnceggleston]

look here: www.car-part.com

 

sort your search by distance. a $500 engine nearby equals a $350 engine you have to ship for $150.

if possible you want to get a 95 or a 96 2.2 engine. they are non-interferrence engines, this means no damage if the timing belt breaks. if you get a 95 you may also need the exhaust 'y' pipe, first section of the exhaust which blots to the engine.

 

What's involved in the vacuum gauge test, can you "loan" those from autozone?

 

Someone else suggested putting the coolant dye in there and checking that out. I'll probably try and do that later this week.

 

Check out this engine, am I correct that this would work on my car? Its only 60 miles from where I live: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-SUBARU-LEGACY-2-2-ENGINE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ017QQitemZ270136207750QQrdZ1

 

Other suggestions on used engines? What do I need to look for in terms of compatibility or condition? (I have a 96 Legacy LS with the 2.2 liter)

[JStamberg]

look here: www.car-part.com

 

sort your search by distance. a $500 engine nearby equals a $350 engine you have to ship for $150.

if possible you want to get a 95 or a 96 2.2 engine. they are non-interferrence engines, this means no damage if the timing belt breaks. if you get a 95 you may also need the exhaust 'y' pipe, first section of the exhaust which blots to the engine.

 

What should I be looking for regarding mileage, condition? What's a reasonable price?

[johnceggleston]

What should I be looking for regarding mileage, condition? What's a reasonable price?

 

prices vary from 400$ to over 1000$. it just depends on the seller. lower miles tend to cost more, but if the place has a bunch of them the price may be lower. some places sell them high priced regardless of miles.

 

at car-part.com you can sort your search by distance, price or quality of the part. try all 3 and see what you find. availabliity may make the decision for you.

 

i wouldn't put an engine with 175k miles in a car with 125k, but i probably would do it the other way around. the 95 engine is referred to as being 'bullet proof' the 96 is only slightly different and is also a great engine. some owners of 97 - 98 outbacks with 2.5L engines and bad head gaskets are using the 95 as a replacement engine.

 

i'm sure there is a member of this board who has one, but is probably not willing to let it go. you can try posting in the 'wanted ' section, but i'd be surprised if you found one. the ebay ad seems like a pretty good deal, but look around, you never know.

 

edit: i forgot it was a 97 engine on ebay, not quite as good of a deal since the 97 2.2 is an interferrence engine. i don't know about compatibility.

[JStamberg]

prices vary from 400$ to over 1000$. it just depends on the seller. lower miles tend to cost more, but if the place has a bunch of them the price may be lower. some places sell them high priced regardless of miles.

 

at car-part.com you can sort your search by distance, price or quality of the part. try all 3 and see what you find. availabliity may make the decision for you.

 

i wouldn't put an engine with 175k miles in a car with 125k, but i probably would do it the other way around. the 95 engine is referred to as being 'bullet proof' the 96 is only slightly different and is also a great engine. some owners of 97 - 98 outbacks with 2.5L engines and bad head gaskets are using the 95 as a replacement engine.

 

i'm sure there is a member of this board who has one, but is probably not willing to let it go. you can try posting in the 'wanted ' section, but i'd be surprised if you found one. the ebay ad seems like a pretty good deal, but look around, you never know.

 

edit: i forgot it was a 97 engine on ebay, not quite as good of a deal since the 97 2.2 is an interferrence engine. i don't know about compatibility.

 

Good info, I appreciate it. The car has almost 202k miles on it, so I'll see if I can find a decent deal on an engine with under 125k miles on it.

 

I'll still check the vacuum system. I may double check the coolant system pressure test and compression test numbers again.

[johnceggleston]

I'll see if I can find a decent deal on an engine with under 125k miles on it.

 

 

half a dozen 96's to choose from within 100 miles of you, 600$ or less.

25 or more 95's to pick from, but those will require the 95 y-pipe.

 

oh yeah, their mileage is off, way off in some cases. they say christiansburg va is 105 miles, it's closer to 140 miles.

the question becomes, how far will you drive to save 50$. and generally you don't have to sweat the missing misc. parts, you'll have all parts off of your current engine to use.

[JStamberg]

Thanks, John, for the info on the engines. A friend and I checked out one today, supposedly had about 53k (1996) for $650. It looks like the car it was off of had front end damage (sheared crankshaft pulley, cut timing belt, motor mounts beat up), so I'm not too interested unless they're willing to take about half that.

 

But I'm wondering if I may be alright without doing anything major to my current engine. Here's some of my latest findings:

 

1) Vacuum test: Pretty stable around 20.5 in HG (+/- .2 in) at idle. No fluctuations besides the minor needle vibration of .2 inches. With the quick acceleration and snap back to idle, it would drop to about 4 in Hg and rise back up to about 24 or 25 inches. From what I could tell in the Haynes manual that is pretty normal. Any other thoughts from anyone on those findings?

 

2) I rechecked the compression: Much better this time. The first time I watched someone else do it (I had never done it on a car before... only an airplane... a little different), and I don't think they blocked the throttle open, I'm also not sure how careful they were. I gave it about 6 or 7 hits on each cylinder. Here's my findings:

 

Dry:

#1: first hit: 105, final: 185

#2: first hit: 105, final: 180

#3: first hit: 110, final: 195

#4: first hit: 110, final: 190

 

Wet:

#1: 210

#2: 215

#3: 215

#4: 215

 

I'm still going to get the coolant system pressure tested again, and I'm going to put the dye in. But the vacuum and compression tests seem to negate the likelyhood of head gaskets, but this is all knew for me, so please give me any advice/input you have!

 

With those numbers, the smoothness of the engine, and fact that the coolant leak is still relatively slow, we may just keep driving it for a while (keeping a much better eye on the coolant level and temp gauge of course).

 

Thanks again for everyone's help!

[nipper]

Thanks, John, for the info on the engines. A friend and I checked out one today, supposedly had about 53k (1996) for $650. It looks like the car it was off of had front end damage (sheared crankshaft pulley, cut timing belt, motor mounts beat up), so I'm not too interested unless they're willing to take about half that.

 

But I'm wondering if I may be alright without doing anything major to my current engine. Here's some of my latest findings:

 

1) Vacuum test: Pretty stable around 20.5 in HG (+/- .2 in) at idle. No fluctuations besides the minor needle vibration of .2 inches. With the quick acceleration and snap back to idle, it would drop to about 4 in Hg and rise back up to about 24 or 25 inches. From what I could tell in the Haynes manual that is pretty normal. Any other thoughts from anyone on those findings?

 

2) I rechecked the compression: Much better this time. The first time I watched someone else do it (I had never done it on a car before... only an airplane... a little different), and I don't think they blocked the throttle open, I'm also not sure how careful they were. I gave it about 6 or 7 hits on each cylinder. Here's my findings:

 

Dry:

#1: first hit: 105, final: 185

#2: first hit: 105, final: 180

#3: first hit: 110, final: 195

#4: first hit: 110, final: 190

 

Wet:

#1: 210

#2: 215

#3: 215

#4: 215

 

I'm still going to get the coolant system pressure tested again, and I'm going to put the dye in. But the vacuum and compression tests seem to negate the likelyhood of head gaskets, but this is all knew for me, so please give me any advice/input you have!

 

With those numbers, the smoothness of the engine, and fact that the coolant leak is still relatively slow, we may just keep driving it for a while (keeping a much better eye on the coolant level and temp gauge of course).

 

Thanks again for everyone's help!

 

Those are much more respectable numbers. Depending upon who you talk to, compression numbers should be between 10-15% of the lowest and highest. There is some minor ring wear. The valves are good. Its hard to tell on a subaru about a bad HG by compression test, but usually they kick out coolant, they dont burn it. I dont see a bad HG by those numbers either, otherwise you would have one or two low cylinders next to each other.

 

Get the dye test. Here is something you can try to, have somone that doesnt drive the car get in the car and turn the heat on full hot but a medium fan setting. See if they smell anything sweet. We all get acustomed to our surroundings, so both drivers may not notice it, but a stranger might.

 

Newer soobies dont have that many places for hidden leaks, unlike the old soobies.

 

nipper

[JStamberg]

Thanks, Nipper. Good advice about having someone else check the smell.

 

Here's an interesting development in the situation. We live on the west side of the Appalachians in TN. Last night we drove someone to the Asheville, NC airport (over the mountains) about an 90 minutes away. I was driving pretty hard (with the AC on) to get our friend to the airport on time. This time I was trying to pay much better attention to the engine temp. It seemed to be fine until we were sitting in front of the airport in the unloading zone. Then it was right below the "H".

 

There was a small puddle of coolant under the front left of the car (around the water pump and reservoir). The resevoir was almost completely full and a bit foamy at the top. The radiator cap (which I recently replaced due to advice given here) was warm, but not hot. We waited there for about 20 minutes. The coolant in the resevoir went back down to a normal level (I assume as the coolant went back into the radiator).

 

We drove it home, took it a bit easier on the engine (slower, no AC), and the engine temp stayed at its normal placed (just below halfway).

 

I checked things out this morning, and the radiator was full and the resevoir had lost maybe half of the total fluid it can hold.

 

I put the dye in this morning. Any thoughts?

[johnceggleston]

bad head gasket.

[JStamberg]

bad head gasket.

 

How did you arrive at that conclusion?