What do newest head gaskets look like?

[Gabbahey]

Hey folks:

 

I'd appreciate your opinion. I had my 2000 Outback with 111,000 K at the dealer for tires and inspection, and they pointed out some seepage from the head gasket at cylinder #4. Not clear if it was coolant or oil. There were other oil leaks from under the timing belt cover, thought to be seals (just had timing belt replaced and all seals/idlers/waterpump/tensioner). But later the seals were reported tight, and the leaks chalked up to the head gasket. No coolant leak or loss has been visible since I bought the car at 91,000 K.

 

I've been thinking of replacing gaskets as a preventative measure for a while. It's an idea that's been eating away at me. So I decided to let the dealer do it. I can do this kind of work, but I'm so busy, I bailed and let the dealer handle it.

 

The service manager was not certain if the original gaskets were new or old style. Like every other dealer I've been to in the last 20 years, he did not inspire confidence.

 

After changing the gaskets, the service manager insisted the original were "old style" and the replacements were "new style." Of course, I wonder if they just used any old stock they had sitting around.

 

My question: How are the new-style gaskets constructed? What do they look like installed? From above I can only see a single layer of metal.

 

The old gaskets are a single layer of metal, with some kind of rubber coating on both sides.

 

 

Not sure the condition reveals anything: the gaskets were thrown into the "kitty litter pile" until I recovered them, so the discoloration is the litter and other dirt. The coating has lifted/bubbled off the metal in places.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[nipper]

New gaskets are "multi layered" metal.

 

They couldnt find one in the parts room to show you?

 

nipper

[Gabbahey]

New gaskets are "multi layered" metal.

 

They couldnt find one in the parts room to show you?

 

nipper

 

 

Well, I haven't been back to the dealer to ask. I just drove away with their assurances....

[Gabbahey]

New gaskets are "multi layered" metal.

 

They couldnt find one in the parts room to show you?

 

nipper

 

 

So are all the layers edge-to edge? That is, looking from the outside, would you see every layer?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[GeneralDisorder]

There's no way they would use "any old stock" that's lying around. Beleive us when we tell you they replace a LOT of these and there aren't any old stock left in the system. Dealerships rarely have more than two sets of HG's on hand at any one time, and the warehouses would have disposed of the depricated gaskets.

 

It's not a good sign that they "didn't know" - I would have asked to speak to the tech that changed them. Also doesn't inspire confidence that they didn't furnish you with the "used" parts as a rule. I work in a shop and we ALWAYS keep the old parts to everything we work on for several months after the job is done - in case there is any question at all about the work performed. We also return them to the owner upon request. We would never just "dispose" of them in the shop sweep. And if we did dispose of them it would be into the garbage, not the sweep as that is hazmat.

 

GD

[nipper]

When a mfg does a design change, they do it for one of two reasons. They find that they can use a newer part number to replace an older part number, or they do an engineering change on a "poor" part. When they do this they usually recall all the parts in stock or tell the dealer and wharehouse to destroy them.

 

On a part like this, they REALLY dont want you coming back a 2nd time.

 

 

i thought there was a picture here some place of the new style HG, but i cant find one

 

porcupine usually has all sorts of pics...

 

nipper

[Gabbahey]

they usually recall all the parts in stock or tell the dealer and warehouse to destroy them.

 

nipper

 

Nipper, Disorder:

 

Thank you---I'm probably worrying about nothing.

 

Mike

[Gabbahey]

 

It's not a good sign that they "didn't know" - I would have asked to speak to the tech that changed them. Also doesn't inspire confidence that they didn't furnish you with the "used" parts as a rule.

 

GD

 

When I had the timing belt replaced at 105 K, they didn't tell me that the inner t-belt cover had a stripped bolt. I discovered that when adjusting valves, as well as a new leak from under the t-belt cover.

 

Was going to do this myself, had bought the parts, but broke my hand.

 

I told them to save all the replaced parts.

 

So I went back to the dealer. They apparently had made a bunch of notes about the cracked cover and the leak when they did the t-belt, but forgot to tell me.

 

At the dealer to have the head gaskets replaced, there was a lady with another 2000 Outback throwing a P042 code. They were replacing the catalytic converter for some thousands of dollars. I had to wonder, did they try the O2 sensor first?

 

Are techs in a hurry? Are most customers who go to a dealer just not interested in the details? (As opposed to customers who go to an independent shop.)

[GeneralDisorder]

When I had the timing belt replaced at 105 K, they didn't tell me that the inner t-belt cover had a stripped bolt. I discovered that when adjusting valves, as well as a new leak from under the t-belt cover.

 

Was going to do this myself, had bought the parts, but broke my hand.

 

Yeah - that's rough. You probably did the best thing though - better to let the hand heal and deal with the dealer. Too bad you aren't near me...

 

I told them to save all the replaced parts.

 

So I went back to the dealer. They apparently had made a bunch of notes about the cracked cover and the leak when they did the t-belt, but forgot to tell me.

 

Typical - lots of "kids" working at dealerships these days. Very few older techs with experience and knowledge willing to work piecemeal anymore. They push people too hard because of the flat rate work. They do the job as quickly as possible and without much regard to quality.

 

At the dealer to have the head gaskets replaced, there was a lady with another 2000 Outback throwing a P042 code. They were replacing the catalytic converter for some thousands of dollars. I had to wonder, did they try the O2 sensor first?.

 

That code is determined by the difference between the front and rear oxygen sensor's - it's highly unlikely that both are bad in such a way that the ECU hasn't detected an O2 malfunction, but was still able to determine a high level of emissions...

 

But it's too bad she doesn't know that $8 would buy a couple of spark plug non-foulers to set the rear O2 sensor back out of the exhaust stream about 1" - allowing for a sufficient different between front and rear sensors to eliminate that code (even if you gutted the cat). I've done this a couple times with vehicles that had converters that were damaged by severe misfiring ignitions, and other issues. Works fantastically. It's soooo beautiful that the test centers now just rely on the validity of the on board computer rather than the actual emissions from the tailpipe. I can make the computer tell them anything I want it to.

 

Are techs in a hurry? Are most customers who go to a dealer just not interested in the details? (As opposed to customers who go to an independent shop.)

 

Absolutely correct my friend - absolutely! Ain't it beautiful?

 

GD

[Gabbahey]

 

Typical - lots of "kids" working at dealerships these days. Very few older techs with experience and knowledge willing to work piecemeal anymore. They push people too hard because of the flat rate work. They do the job as quickly as possible and without much regard to quality.

 

GD

 

Yep, I can see that, and it's a shame. Like teachers, techs should be trained and paid well!

[davebugs]

I'd be interested in a pic of the new gaskets as well. I'll be doing the job soon myself. If no-one has posted them by then I'll post a pic of mine. I may possibly get them tomorrow - weather depending.

 

What are spark plug non-foulers and where can I get me some? Sounds like a good thing to keep around. On Sub's with those type issues Seafoam has been my friend in the past. But I like to keep gizmo's around that could get a fella out of a jamb.

 

I can't believe that I've never heard of them.

 

Dave

[GeneralDisorder]

What are spark plug non-foulers and where can I get me some? Sounds like a good thing to keep around. On Sub's with those type issues Seafoam has been my friend in the past. But I like to keep gizmo's around that could get a fella out of a jamb.

 

I can't believe that I've never heard of them.

 

Dave

 

Here ya go Dave:

 

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/04/ba/2b/0900823d8004ba2b/repairInfoPages.htm

 

For the O2 "trick" you use two of them coupled together with the one attached to the O2 drilled out to allow room for the sensor probe.

 

Sure is fortuitous that they saw fit to provide us the same threads for both O2's and plugs eh?

 

GD

[davebugs]

Thanks. I'll get me some hopefully this week.

 

I'm having trouble visualizing why 2 are needed for the O2 sensor fix.

 

If I do get my HG's tomorrow I will attempt to post a pic.

 

Is it true that most folks don't get new head bolts?

 

The dealer quotes me that I'd probably need some kind of washers. Perhaps for the valve covers? This will be my first significant teardown of a Sub engine. I'm most likely to get the new style HG's and intake gaskets until I get it torn apart and see what else my be needed.

 

GD - thanks for the link.

 

Dave

[nipper]

On subaru engines you dont need new headbolts, as they arent stretched to the point of deformation from torquing.

 

Do you mean washers or shims? they use shims for the valve adjustment.

 

 

nipper

[davebugs]

Definatley washers - not shims.

My notes : VC bolt wshr 12 13271AA051 136ES 3.25

Also possibly Spark plug gkt 4 13293AA051 140E3 7.95

 

Those are list prices. VC would mean valve cover. My notes make it look like 12 @ 3.25 ea - those must be special washers!

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[mnwolftrack]

I'm not sure if the newer 2.5L head gaskets are exactly the same as what I replaced on my '98 OBW, but your old gaskets looked exactly like my old ones. There was one thick layer of metal in the middle and a black coating on both sides that was flaking/bubbling or just plain missing. The coating was missing in both of the spots the head gasket was leaking on my engine and I think it helped contribute to the failure.

 

The new gaskets were all metal, no coating (there might have been a ring of coating on the fire rings, but I don't recall), and I believe were 3 layers of metal. The new gaskets were crimped together at small points. The small points looked like little "bridges" of bent metal that separated and bent up like a bridge to keep the layers together. My description is terrible and I wish I had a picture instead. I do recall being able to see these crimp points from simply looking in the engine bay, and I recall it being a way for myself to be able to determine whether or not a 2.5L had new or old head gaskets.

 

There are a few spots (like tabs) on the old and new head gaskets that stick out into space and are visible fairly easily and would make an easy identification of old vs. new. Based on your photos, these locations are the dry and dirty locations where the gasket wasn't sandwiched between anything. You'd either see 3 clean metal layers with a crimped "bridge", or you'd see one thick metal layer surrounded by two composite layers/coatings. The crimp points on the new gaskets should be in plain view in the locations where the gasket is not sandwiched between anything. The crimp points would likely do bad things if they put them in areas where they needed to be compressed and they'd probably damage surfaces.

 

Again, this is my experience with a '98, but your old '00 gaskets look identical to what I removed.

[Gabbahey]

I'm not sure if the newer 2.5L head gaskets are exactly the same as what I replaced on my '98 OBW ... The new gaskets were all metal, no coating (there might have been a ring of coating on the fire rings, but I don't recall), and I believe were 3 layers of metal. The new gaskets were crimped together at small points.

 

Wolftrack:

 

Thanks for that description. I'll have to pull the service hatch thingy and get under the car today.

 

From above, I can only see a single layer of metal, no crimp. Maybe there's been yet another design change, or differences in DOHC/SOHC gaskets.

 

Mike

[davebugs]

I'm attempting to post my first pictures to the forum.

 

They are of the new HG's that I just picked up for my 97 OB 2.5.

 

Still in the wrapper with the Subaru Part #'s.

 

Hope this works.

 

Dave

[WAWalker]

Phase I 2.5L (DOHC) and Phase II 2.5 (SOHC) head gaskets are NOT the same. Not even close.

 

I have been told by dealers that the SOHC head gaskets have been updated, but...................I have replaced MANY of these and can NOT tell any difference between the original and the replacement gaskets.

 

They are made of, one signial thin layer of metal, with a coating on each side. If you look closely at that coating on your old gaskets you will see fibers in it. It looks more like paper than rubber.

[WAWalker]

This is a new head gasket for a 2.5L SOHC engine.

 

 

It is very hard to get a good picture of the thickness of the gasket. It looks thicker in this picture than it is.

 

This gasket is a wopping .66 mm thick. Compaire to the DOHC multi layered gasket which is ~ 1.27 mm thick.

[Gabbahey]

This is a new head gasket for a 2.5L SOHC engine.

 

Hey WAWalker:

 

Thanks very much for that picture. Edge on, it looks like my installed gasket---one shiny visible layer.

 

Better yet, the head gasket part no. on my shop invoice matches the numbers in your picture.

 

I have done all I can to lay the 2.5 gasket ghost to rest.

 

G.