bk2valve Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 Hi BrianWhen i got my 87 wagon I replaced plugs, wires, but not the disty cap/rotor because they looked new enough. Big mistake, I then had the same exact issue you are describing. As it turned out, the moron who worked on the car before I purchased it put the wrong disty cap/rotor on the car, he put on the non denso stuff, and my car has the denso disty. It functioned correctly in spite of that, until I wiggled the disty cap around while replacing the spark wires. Then, like you, no go. Moral of the story, make sure the cap is the correct one, the best way I know to tell is to look at the bottom edge of the cap. On my car the cap needs to have 2 small tabs that stick out from the caps base (at the 12 and 6 o'clock position if you will) and fit into corresponding slots in the disty. The cap the previous owner put on my car only had one tab, which allowed the cap to move/rotate ever so slightly, causing the rotor to not line up correctly with the metal points inside the cap- make sense? Just my .02 seeing as I've experienced something eerily similar :-\ chris Chris....Good idea! I will go ahead and check that out....I have two new...different brand caps and rotors and I will look...... Will get back to you....Thanks! Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Chris....Good idea! I will go ahead and check that out....I have two new...different brand caps and rotors and I will look......Will get back to you....Thanks! Brian hey, i just remembered, the tabs are actually on the distributor, and the slots for the tabs are on the cap (so take what i said and flip it around) make sure whatever brand cap you have has the proper slots to fit securely on the disty's 1 or 2 tabs. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 hey, i just remembered, the tabs are actually on the distributor, and the slots for the tabs are on the cap (so take what i said and flip it around) make sure whatever brand cap you have has the proper slots to fit securely on the disty's 1 or 2 tabs.chris Actually Chris, I looked at mine and dashed over to the parts store and talked with them and mine must be a different disty than yours....there are two screws holding down the cap and they are ever so slightly off center so it can only go one way...if you look at the gear lash of the rotor and the width of the rotor contact, there is no way that what infinitesimal movement there could be would have any effect at all on the system... The screws do not allow any movement when they are going in and when they are tightened..... Good guess though....thanks, Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio_file Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Actually Chris, I looked at mine and dashed over to the parts store and talked with them and mine must be a different disty than yours....there are two screws holding down the cap and they are ever so slightly off center so it can only go one way...if you look at the gear lash of the rotor and the width of the rotor contact, there is no way that what infinitesimal movement there could be would have any effect at all on the system... The screws do not allow any movement when they are going in and when they are tightened.....Good guess though....thanks, Brian cool, that means you have the non denso disty i think (for future ref). you may try just putting the old parts back on one at a time to see if you can narrow it down farther . . . good luck, i'll follow this thread, now i'm intrigued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 cool, that means you have the non denso disty i think (for future ref).you may try just putting the old parts back on one at a time to see if you can narrow it down farther . . . good luck, i'll follow this thread, now i'm intrigued yeah...that's a problem Chris.....the garbage hauler came since the cap got pitched.....so...I am still inclined to think ignition amplifier with a intermittent fault or a CAS unit that's going south on me.... Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 If you are testing for spark at the coil high tension wire the cap is not in the picture - soto speak. If you need these parts (dist or amp) I am sure I could dig them up shot me an email or PM and I'll send them. Might be dark enough there now?? to do the check for the small yellow spark I spoke of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 11, 2008 Author Share Posted January 11, 2008 If you are testing for spark at the coil high tension wire the cap is not in the picture - soto speak. If you need these parts (dist or amp) I am sure I could dig them up shot me an email or PM and I'll send them. Might be dark enough there now?? to do the check for the small yellow spark I spoke of. Skip....Thanks for all the help....I was able to use the download from you and then I found one from General_Disorder that helped a lot and do all the checks at the ECU and there is power where and when there is supposed to be. I have an obligation for this evening but when I get back it will be dark enough to do the spark test you suggested and I will get back to you on how it works out....I think that I am looking at a new used ig amp or a CAS for the disty. If I do need the stuff I will let you know and go from there.....have a good eve. Brian in NM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94Loyale Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Brian, I see your post on here that you don't need the igniter anymore. You did say that you cleaned the CAS and it ran a couple times. That would lead me to think it could be the CAS also. Your in luck though I replaced mine with a brand new one, because I thought that was it. So I still have my old distributor that still works great, no shaft play to speak of either. The CAS is very expensive, (around $190),just about as much as a whole new distributor with CAS already in it. Almost every distributor I found is over $200 new, http://www.Rockauto.com was having a closeout on them, and I stole mine for $100, but it doesn't look like they have anymore closeouts. I'd sell you my good, used distributor for $25+shipping, and include a good igniter just in case. Let me know if you need it though. If you cleaned the photo disc and it started for a little but stumbled. I think you found your problem. Atleast it's easy to fix, takes about 5 minutes,haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 I see more things have taken place since "The Cat" has been away doing other things. It appears that the voltages to the ECU are ok so that is good to know. I will note that when the disty circuit is working as it should be there will be pluses seen on the minus side of the coil using a test light probe so you are right in thinking that Brian. Another point is since voltage to coil comes from fuse 11 it is possible to not have voltage getting to the ECU coming from the ignition relay since it comes from the green fusible link. Just something to be aware of, both areas need to be checked when this kind of trouble happens. You could also check the voltages on the leads to the disty. Looking at my notes it shows that a couple of the leads should be around 5 volts and another around 12 volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 Brian, I see your post on here that you don't need the igniter anymore. You did say that you cleaned the CAS and it ran a couple times. That would lead me to think it could be the CAS also. Your in luck though I replaced mine with a brand new one, because I thought that was it. So I still have my old distributor that still works great, no shaft play to speak of either. The CAS is very expensive, (around $190),just about as much as a whole new distributor with CAS already in it. Almost every distributor I found is over $200 new, http://www.Rockauto.com was having a closeout on them, and I stole mine for $100, but it doesn't look like they have anymore closeouts. I'd sell you my good, used distributor for $25+shipping, and include a good igniter just in case. Let me know if you need it though. If you cleaned the photo disc and it started for a little but stumbled. I think you found your problem. Atleast it's easy to fix, takes about 5 minutes,haha. 94Loyale....if you will sell me the disty and igniter for that price I will go ahead and take them and will know I have a couple of good parts...just let me know how much the postage is and I will forward it...do you have a Paypal account? If not I can send a Money order. I am thinking the cleaning s not solving the problem. Thanks very much... Brian in NM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 I see more things have taken place since "The Cat" has been away doing other things. It appears that the voltages to the ECU are ok so that is good to know. I will note that when the disty circuit is working as it should be there will be pluses seen on the minus side of the coil using a test light probe so you are right in thinking that Brian. Another point is since voltage to coil comes from fuse 11 it is possible to not have voltage getting to the ECU coming from the ignition relay since it comes from the green fusible link. Just something to be aware of, both areas need to be checked when this kind of trouble happens. You could also check the voltages on the leads to the disty. Looking at my notes it shows that a couple of the leads should be around 5 volts and another around 12 volts. I will do that first thing in the AM, Cougar Thanks very much for all your help. Brian in NM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 http://ch601.org/engines.htm scroll down, find EA82 part1 and part2, download, and enjoy a chunk of FSM goodness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 If you are testing for spark at the coil high tension wire the cap is not in the picture - soto speak. If you need these parts (dist or amp) I am sure I could dig them up shot me an email or PM and I'll send them. Might be dark enough there now?? to do the check for the small yellow spark I spoke of. Skip...I did the spark test last night and there was nothing.....Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Thanks for the update Brian. As far as I can see, that almost eliminates an Ig Amp problem. If the ECU is sending it's signal, even as small as it is it should generate a small spark. You brave enough to hold the coil wire while cranking? (rare case Ig Amp is shorted, but you say you tested for that.) Back to the Cat's tests or maybe a CAS (dist) swap. By the way Are you using one of these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 http://ch601.org/engines.htm scroll down, find EA82 part1 and part2, download, and enjoy a chunk of FSM goodness. Daeron, Thanks for that.....I will probably buy an FSM at some point as the Haynes manual is severely limited....but this will really help for now..... Brian in NM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 Thanks for the update Brian. As far as I can see, that almost eliminates an Ig Amp problem. If the ECU is sending it's signal, even as small as it is it should generate a small spark. You brave enough to hold the coil wire while cranking? (rare case Ig Amp is shorted, but you say you tested for that.) Back to the Cat's tests or maybe a CAS (dist) swap. By the way Are you using one of these? Skip....not that brave....I absolutely hate shocks...even static electricity we get here from the low humidity...I have had numerous nerve tests when they stick needles in your muscles and you pay them vast amounts of money to shock you and see what works and what doesn't...as I say...I hate shocks! Yep, I have a home made remote starter switch I made years ago when I had VWs that I ALWAYS had to work on. I am hoping to get 94Loyale's disty and ig amp and will be go from there...or will have a spare. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 good on ya for not liking shocks sparks ect. I work in the electronics field, I don't like them either. I'm guessing an old NON inductive timing light* is in your inventory? *You might not remember the type that went in-line (series) with the spark plug wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Have you checked the voltages on the wires to the disty yet? I forgot to mention in my last post that the ignition needs to be ON when you do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 Have you checked the voltages on the wires to the disty yet? I forgot to mention in my last post that the ignition needs to be ON when you do that. Cougar...yes I did and they are fine, just as you said....12v, 5v, 5v and one with almost nothing : .02v I am now looking for a diagram to show me what fuse 11 is and then will test that....I am also going to run a continuity check on my ign. switch wires next.... Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 http://ch601.org/engines.htm scroll down, find EA82 part1 and part2, download, and enjoy a chunk of FSM goodness. Daeron....I am just now downloading and saving the EA82 stuff and I am even more grateful.....chock full of good info and it may be just what I need to get on top of this what with everyones help....Thanks again!!! Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Fuse #11 provides power to the coil and fuel pump relay. You stated you had power getting to the coil fine. If you are sure that the ECU is getting voltage at all the pins I asked you to check previously then I would suspect the ignition amp is bad. Also be sure that the coil has a good case ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 Fuse #11 provides power to the coil and fuel pump relay. You stated you had power getting to the coil fine. If you are sure that the ECU is getting voltage at all the pins I asked you to check previously then I would suspect the ignition amp is bad. Also be sure that the coil has a good case ground. Cougar....I do have power in and out of fuse 11. The coil case has a good ground. Did the suggested test on that.........also just to be sure that my ignition switch did not have an intermittent open, I pulled the electrical part, opened it up and cleaned all the contacts and lengthened the spring for good contact,,,,that is definitely good now. Yes I am sure about the ECU having power at all the pins you suggested. I think that now I have to wait for the ig amp and disty from 94 Loyale to show up. Brian Skip....no, the non inductive light is gone....yes I do remember that...I am soon to be 64 years on this old earth. I have moved so many times that a lot of the old stuff has been culled out and left behind....22 years in Alaska meant a heap of stuff to leave behind....some stuff I regret but most stuff, no regrets. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Don't be too discouraged by all this work - reading through here I also suspect your ignition amplifier is fualty. Those are a pretty rare failure so you'll probably only have to replace it once. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 Red faced and shuffling his feet, I am a few years behind you but have been in the same house for 30 years, => I have some ah some stuff. Now I see why you and the Cat bond so well. But AK to NM -- yea ha that's a switch. You did know that Cat meant the coil "bracket" not the coil body. Just for kickies - humor me and wiggle and giggle the connector from the dist to the car harness. while having it cranked over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bk2valve Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 Don't be too discouraged by all this work - reading through here I also suspect your ignition amplifier is fualty. Those are a pretty rare failure so you'll probably only have to replace it once. GD GD...I'm not discouraged...just a tad frustrated at times....we have plenty of other vehicles and the weather here is perfect so no problem.....While I have been doing all this, I have cleaned the engine, done all the replacement stuff including PCV valve and tubing, changed the valve cover gaskets to eliminate some big leakage problem, changed the half axles, redid the battery connectors, yadda, yadda, yadda....Even installed all the satellite radio stuff to swap the radio off my motorcycle when I want to....in short, having a ball and understanding more and more...besides now I have all the cool diagrams and literature you guys have been turning me onto. The story is that we owned this car from 85K to 180K and kept it up pretty good....we sold it to a woman of very limited income a year ago and she could not keep it up. The cv joints went and it sat for a month with no use. I gave her her money back and now am making it into a little mini camper for me when the weather is bad and I don't want to camp with the sidecar. It's all good.... Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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