four-fleet-feet Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I bought a 97 Impreza L wagon, 2.2 with about 161k on it, about a month ago, and have put 1k on it since. The previous owner had no real maintenance record to share, other than a timing belt two years ago (dealer service). She bought it at 80k and put 80k on it. My first duty after title/ins/all that was to get an oil change and checkup that very day. Diffs/trans looked good, but the previous owner had mentioned it had a slight leak, *maybe* at the oil sensor. We pressure washed it after the oil change, thinking it was coming from the valve cover gaskets. Not. Not one drip on them in 300 miles. It was too dirty underneath to tell the origin of the leak. It has the same four drips from the front end, all in a line, directly behind the bumper but not back to the axle. CVs look good, not taking any fluids save power steering (day of purchase it was down in the reservoir, but has not needed a drop since). I need to take a 1500 mile trip and do not want to leave until this is fixed; it's a little smoky after hard climbs at freeway speed, and I don't want to take her into the mountains until I stop the leak. Any ideas what could be wrong (with the specific line of four drips off the front end, none ANYWHERE else). I'm not taking more oil than I would expect a high-mileage car to have. It's not a gushing leak, just an annoyingly smoky one. I call my new Subie my Dragon, but that doesn't mean I want her smoking like one! As far as knowing my way with a high-miler, my last truck was a 91 S-10 with 348k on the original engine/trans - and I'd still have it if a commercial Peterbuilt driver had seen me on that bright sunny August Seattle day... but I'm much happer with my Subie! If only we could fix the Dread Oil Leak... Suggestions as to where to look? If it's something I can't fix and I have to take her into the shop I want to know if I'm being fed a line of hooey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 welcome to the USMB four fleet It sounds like this leak is coming from the front of the engine Cam seals and crank seal can leak into the timing belt area and can drip as you say. My advise is clean it add the oil dye and use an ultraviolet light to spot it. (auto part stores stock this) If it is the timing belt cover the belts could be in jeopardy. Or could be oil soaked and toast. Therefore all alacrity would be meritorious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hohieu Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 If the oil is coming off the front of the engine, there could be several sources: - crank shaft seal - 2 cam shaft seals - the oil pump itself, which is glued onto the front of the short block with RTV Replacing these seals and resealing the oil pump are normally performed at every other timing belt service for your car, I believe. There are other things to check such as the idler pulleys and the screws on the back of the oil pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Yes welcome to the board! Here are the most common Subaru oil leak locations with pics: Front cam seals (especially the earlier black colored seals; the newer brownish colored ones hold up better) (pics from an EJ22): Front crank seal (esp the mid 90's 2.2L's and some others where the screws on the rear case of the oil pump tended to loosen, letting oil out the front crank seal and sometimes even pushing the seal right out) Also there is an o-ring between the oil pump discharge and block The valve cover gaskets, and for engines where the spark plug tubes penetrate the valve cover, the spark plug hole seals. EJ22's also have an o-ring at the LH rear and RH front of the cam's: Also rear main seal, especially if the vehicle had a plastic rear main seal retainer/oil separator (an OEM upgrade to a metal retainer is available). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hohieu Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I know that this has been your inside joke with Skip, but WOW, what a spread?! A picture, as they say, is worth.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 hohieu says it all I bow humbly to you, master!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-fleet-feet Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Thank you all for your replies! This now sounds less like an annoyance and more like a must-do-before-trip. Is this as hard as it sounds - can it be done in a driveway or should this be a dealer repair? As far as the mechanic-in-question, it's fellow new poster aircraft-engineer. I'd been telling him my water leak was coming from the tail light - your responses to him were right on target and proved I wasn't a turnip! If I can't answer he will, but the two of us need to get to the bottom of this. Thanks again for all your help, four-fleet-feet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 You'll have to get the cam belt covers off and have a look in there. I just did a timing belt repair on my 96 2.2L and replaced all the seals mentioned above. If you have a warm place to work on it and a good set of tools, a "novice" can do the repairs. I think I spent 12 hours total on the job... including new valve cover gaskets. A good mechanic will do it a lot faster though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 grumble grumble... just what I wanted - another thing to work on without a GARAGE and in the wet cold winter ... Nothing quite like laying on my back under a car in a cold driveway...in 40F weather :-\ I power washed the engine lower and the valve covers don't show and oil on the lower cover to head interfaces so I think they aren't the problem. I can DO the main /cam seals but how do I seat the seals without removing the radiator for clearance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hohieu Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 After removing the the fans, you'll have plenty of clearance. You can use PVC plumbling couplers of 1" and 1-1/4" to drive in the crank shaft and cam shaft seals, respectively. if you have an appropriately sized adapter (e.g. from a hub tamer or ball joint press), you could also try pressing the new seals in using the the crank and cam shaft bolts. This would be the best way in my opinion. Otherwise, you can tap the seals in with a soft faced hammer. -- Remember to note how far the old seals are pressed into the well for the puruposes of installation. To remove the cam shaft seals, you can use a screwdriver if you trust your dexterity to not scratch the cam shafts. Otherwise, you can drill two small holes into opposite sides of the seal, attach two srews, and use a hammer to pry against the screw heads. In both cases, its helpful to use a hammer handle or something similar as a fulcrum as you pry up on the seal. The crank shaft seal will come off easily with a screwdriver after as it is mounted onto the oil pump housing, which will have to come off in order to perform the reseal. Do a search on timing belt jobs, and there'll be plenty of good threads. There's also an article on www.endwrench.com for doing the timing belt job on the 2.2L SOHC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 - crank shaft seal - 2 cam shaft seals - the oil pump itself, which is glued onto the front of the short block with RTV Don't use RTV. It will splooge out into the pump cavitys, and then tear away and travel into the oil passages. I just had a 2.2 apart that someone had used RTV on the pump. We had to pull every plug form every oil passage and flush them out. Additionally we had to remove and bleed all 16 lash adjusters. Tiny pieces of RTV material where all throughout this motor. Probably why it Tickity-Ticked so much. Use Subaru recommended Three-bond, Toyota bond, or at least good permatex Anearobic sealant. It's 15-20 bucks a tube, but worth it, and performs better for all the other applications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-fleet-feet Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 After a free safety/diagnostic check from my local dealer, here's what they found... They agree with the cam/crank/T belt replacement. We'd already figured they were the problem. What they also want to do is the following: Headgasket, intake/exhaust gaskets, and the valve cover gaskets. Spark plugs and a PCV (and assorted other minutiae included - fluids, etc.). We're headshaking over this list. We couldn't find any leaks on the valve cover gaskets, I have no gunk in the radiator, no compression problems (they didn't mention it was off, only that the plugs were worn. I know they're 2 years old, was already planning on putting in new ones, and have already bought them). The PCV is absolutely new - I put it in the day I registered her! That said, I can't figure out why they're recommending the headgasket. Although aircraft-engineer called to talk to the mechanic right away, he'd already gone home for the day. So... How many of you would recommend the overkill list on a 162k engine with spotty (perhaps nonexistent) maintenance? Dragon runs nicely, no problems save a slight hesitation off full stop, and I think new plugs (and maybe wires) will clear that up. I don't have signs of a massive oil leak, maybe taking 1/2 quart every 500-1000 miles, and no more. The leaks are quarter-sized, even when she's been sitting for hours, and not pools - just spots, four in a line, behind the bumper, from right to left. I'm running 5-30 Pennzoil with a bottle of Slick 50 (regular, not hi-mileage). We could do the overkill list, but the labor hours are the problem; there isn't enough good weather in Seattle this time of year, and we'd have to work outdoors. What would take the shop 12 hours is going to take us DAYS. And we don't want to do work I just don't need done! Having the dealer do it is out: $408 in parts, $1584 in labor. On a $3500. car this just seems extreme... I already love Dragon. I wouldn't sell her if I won the lottery tomorrow! I'd rather have her than a new Subie. Fixing parts which need fixed is no problem, it's what one does on an older car. But I can't seen throwing money at the shredder if I don't have to. Any thoughts on what you'd do if you were in my shoes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I have used some PVC caps from the hardware store to fit over the cams and then use a hammer to tap in the seal using the a hammer on the cap. For pulling the seals, I find this a major pain even with drilling holes etc in the sales. I recently bought this puller (but haven't used it yet) supposed to work pretty well: Subaru approves the use of permatex ultra-grey for oil pump sealing. Any reasonable size chunk of the rtv will be caught in the engine oil filter, since the oil goes through the oil filter after leaving the oil pump discharge (the part sealed with the o-ring to the block). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-fleet-feet Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Oh, forgot the rest of the check: other than a rear wheel bearing needing replaced, nothing else was wrong -I mentioned the crack in the tail light, so they ignored the minor water trail - and they gave her a nice detail and bath for free. So, once we get the oil leak fixed (I consider bearings a messy annoyance and time waster, but no real problem), and reseal the tail light, I should be good to get on the road. Just wondering if we can safely ignore the what-seems-to-be-extreme repair list in light of the eyeball inspections we've done on the parts the dealer says are leaking, and seeing no evidence of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hohieu Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Subaru approves the use of permatex ultra-grey for oil pump sealing. Any reasonable size chunk of the rtv will be caught in the engine oil filter, since the oil goes through the oil filter after leaving the oil pump discharge (the part sealed with the o-ring to the block). Makes sense -- I wonder if the disaster found by Gloyale was caused by RTV used on valve covers or somewhere else? It's a good idea nonetheless to use a judicious amount -- 1/8" bead. Regarding the oil pump reseal -- as mentioned in many other threads, it's recommened to check the screws on the back plate and tighten any loose ones with loctite blue. I would also recommend installing the crank seal after the oil pump is mounted back on the front of the short block. I installed the seal while the oil pump was out, and the lip of the seal would repeatedly turn inside out as I pushed it back over the crank shaft snout. The car is probably on its second water pump, right? Otherwise, you'll want to replace it. I would also regrease the T-belt idlers, including the tensioner idler while you have things apart. As for the head and valve cover gaskets, I would leave them alone until they start leaking or, for the latter, until you need to adjust the valve clearance. Finally, if there's no play on the affected rear wheel, you probably have some time with the wheel bearing; however, if neglected for too long, damage may be done to the housing. The toughest part of the job will be removing the lateral link bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 duplicate - deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondasucks Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Also rear main seal, especially if the vehicle had a plastic rear main seal retainer/oil separator (an OEM upgrade to a metal retainer is available). That is the oil separator plate, aka "access cover" and is prone to leaking on the engines that Subaru used a plastic cover on. It does not have anything to to with the rear main seal though, the rear main is the rear crank shaft seal, and it does not have a "retainer" One of those things that is a good idea to replace while you have the motor out, regardless of if it is leaking or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 anybody know if the rear wheel housings for the Forester and the Impreza are identical for 1997? Since I have to pull them to do the bearings anyway, IF the ones from a junkyard are OK I can just pop them in (found FORESTER rear suspension in a junkyard - on a car of course, not Impreza) At least I'll get to see if the rear brakes are as good as the fronts (almost new) and maybe need to fix them too - what she didn't say is that _I_ do the work. Ain't that what elder Bro's (pee-chai <- that's Thai for older Bro - I speak it too a bit) are for? Anyway - I'm not keen on doing the HEAD GASKETS unless there is a REAL requirement to do them. I see no oil leakage from anywhere that is CLOSE to the head gaskets but some have said that it's another location that leaks. Also - IF there is no oil visible on the lower part of the valve covers why would I need to replace the gaskets? I didn't see the response before I posted before, thanks I'll get the dragon wagon fixed eventually... soon, I hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 OK - what's the plate for and where is it? something else to replace? Engine is staying in unless everything breaks apart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Thanks for the clarification about the oil separator not really being related to the rear main seal. I'm not sure where I got that idea from... For the front crank seal on the oil pump, I always (well ok the two times I have done it) installed the seal on the pump while it was out. I put some grease on the oil seal lip and crank snout before reinstalling and didn't have any problems with the lip folding over. I find it much easier to get seals to go in straight when there's not a snout in the way. I find the cam seal a pain and usually mess up at least one when putting the new ones in. Maybe I should take rad out when doing it next time. Not completely sure on the matching up of the '97 forester to impreza rear wheel bearing housings. The part #'s are the same, but it says Forester '98-'00 and didn't show '97 forester part # 28411AA000 HOUSING, REAR AXLE RIGHT FOR 1993-2000 IMPREZAS ALL 28411AA000 HOUSING, REAR AXLE RIGHT FOR 1998-2000 FORESTERS ALL 28411AA010 HOUSING, REAR AXLE LEFT FOR 1993-2000 IMPREZAS ALL 28411AA010 HOUSING, REAR AXLE LEFT FOR 1998-2000 FORESTERS ALL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbusa Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Regarding replacing the head gaskets... if it ain't broke, don't fix it would seem to apply here. You main problem with the car is the oil leak/s right? The leaks are not coming from the valve cover gaskets so you don't have to replace them. Replace them when they are a problem. Maybe you have a friend who will let you use his garage for a few days? That's what I did. Replacing the water pump, 3 oil seals, timing pulleys & cog really isn't that big of a job. And if your water pump seems fine, pulleys and cog seem fine... the job will be even easier and less expensive. You can do this and save yourself a ton of money. I have limited mechanic ability and have NEVER replaced a timing belt. I decided to just dig in and git er done! It was easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Maybe they didn't make the Forester in 97? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Maybe they didn't make the Forester in 97?Ah ok yes that would be a valid reason! :-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aircraft engineer Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 it was a question, not an "answer". (but, yeah, I checked the 'net and found that it was introduced in 1998) I figure that at $40 each it has to be faster and easier than messing with the bearings in the housings. Just take off and replace (painless). Last time I did one it was a Tempo FRONT and it was a FIRST CLASS pain - I wound up going the replacement route there, too. BTW - bigbusa - I have a full set of tools but no garage other than one of the harbor freight tarp versions (too much junk in REAL garage to fit in a car.) Generally I use my air tools when I can - faster. About the Tempo I mentioned - I got able to pull the hub/struts off both sides and replace them at 45 min per side - in the driveway - in the rain. My expertise is in Mercedes Diesels (190/200D old stuff), Tempo, Dodge Caravan, and Cessna (yeah, it's not a car, but what the heck - never bothered getting my A&P though). I guess that once one gets old (about social security) one gets reluctant to get dirty unless absolutely necessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 hehe, no you are right, the Forester was introduced in '98. Swapping the housings can be a way to go. the biggest pain in that is usually the long bolt holding the control arms and such together back there, those usually are frozen in pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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