The Dreaded Subie Oil Leak... FIXED! Thanks to All!!

[aircraft engineer]

Porcupine - any number identification / manufacturer on that seal tool?

[aircraft engineer]

Just curious - where are you finding the part numbers/year info?

[OB99W]

Porcupine - any number identification / manufacturer on that seal tool?

It's a Lisle 58430. See:

http://www.lislecorp.com/tool_detail.cfm?detail=1164

 

(Until Lisle changes their website again!) :-\

 

EDIT: for places to get one --

http://www.google.com/products?q=lisle+58430&hl=en

[porcupine73]

Oh sorry here it is before i opened it. Someone was dutch auctioning 10 or 15 at the time. I think they were like $8 ea. in that auction. I haven't used it yet, but am hoping it will work well for the cam seals. They are always a pain to get out for me and I usually end up scratching the cam in the process.

 

Subaru oem part #'s I usuaally look up at http://www.subarupartsforyou.com

[aircraft engineer]

Fun in a Tacoma junkyard. this is nothing to do with the oile leak - when you take off the rear hub, take off the link bolts FIRST and last take off the strut attachments. it would have been nice if it hadn't been sitting on the ground to start with.

 

The trailing link bolt is a rubber mount and "difficult to remove unless the hub is attached to the STRUT" Of course, the MUD didn't help either

 

 

zzz <-- I would have CUT the link if I had a saw

[aircraft engineer]

So I finally got enough good weather to do the timing belt replacement.

 

The kit from Importexperts was complete but the main source of the leak was actually the driver's side cam seal plus the valve cover gaskets. ( I got the GERMAN timing belt - which was made in MEXICO - but it looks good and they have a good reputation)

 

Anyway replaced it all - water pump, resealed the oil pump (the back plate WAS loose - blue loctited it), reset the tensioner, replaced all the other idler pulleys and did the crank and driver side cam seals (pax side cam seal didn't show ANY leakage, so left well enough alone).

 

When I got into it, I found that for SOME reason, the driver side cam sprocket "pin" (they use a dowel pin as the cam sprocket to cam "key") was NOT THERE. UTTERLY beats me HOW they timed it. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to find metric dowel pins. The kind folks at Delta Camshafts in Tacoma HAD ONE, so if you need cam work, use them - they sure came thru for me.

 

Anyway - reassembly was simple enough EXCEPT for the cogged idler which took about 1 hour of trial and error push and twist (and shout )

 

Now for the "fun" part - I drained the oil and put in fresh and a new filter. Finished in the dark - started it up and ran for a minute or so and was greeted by a puddle of oil from the filter (which wasn't fully seated) - so more mess to clean up in the morning... when I take out the pressure washer and spray off the driveway .

 

Sort of surprising that the cooling system is only about 1-1/2 gallons. I guess I'm used to 5 gallon systems

 

After the fiasco with the "key" and getting it "timed" it sure has a lot more power and it's good for another 100,000. Too bad it's not mine

[four-fleet-feet]

I'd like to thank everyone who helped get Dragon back to spec working order. :banana: THANK YOU ALL!

 

I was amazed some answers came in less than three minutes!

 

As far as things go, she's like new, save a non-spraying rear window washer (hose issue between the rear-seat and the hatch motor assembly), and a missing rear-seat ash tray (don't smoke anyway).

 

I've become a real pushy advocate of this board to every Subaru driver I've met - and if I hadn't found it, I think aircraft-engineer would have lost his mind figuring things out without your expertise and help.

 

I plan on driving a Subie for as long as I can keep driving, and as long as I do I'll use this site.

 

USMB ROCKS! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[idosubaru]

glad everything worked out, that's great. USMB is super nice. see the "donor" icon under my user name - you can even donate to show your appreciation. i in no way benefit from that, i just donate because i feel the same way you do.

 

my OBS rear washer isn't working either, we can start a club. i haven't looked at it yet.

 

that cogged idler, you mean when you were trying to install the new timing belt? that thing can be a total pain to get in properly! i wonder if anyone has come up with a simple solution.

 

it seems like Subaru always designs timing belts just a bit too tight. why not make them simple to install...just an extra bit of room and design the tensioner to take up that slack? bizarre that they design just on the threshold favoring the side of PITA!?!?

 

They are always a pain to get out for me and I usually end up scratching the cam in the process.

yeah, i like the looks of that tool. i always drill a tiny pilot hole and use a self tapping sheet metal screw in it then a hammer/pliers on the screw head to pull them out. that works well and if you're careful lining up and holding that drill bit it works every time.

[aircraft engineer]

lost my mind? I lost it a long time ago

 

<- that's what happens from working on relative's vehicles

 

The cogged idler actually went in easier with a LONG socket on the bolt head and then "roll" the idler into sort of alignment and then make sure the socket (or alternately a socket with an extension) are essentially "straight out" from the block and that "sort of" aligns the bolt into the hole. (no sexist jokes)

 

It's all "blind" and you only know it's in when it doesn't drop off when you release the pressure on the socket.

 

Seems to go in easier when the belt is fully engaged onto the cogs and water pump as well.

 

I'm thinking that IF you could hold the belt to the driver cam sprocket (I used a very small c clamp and a popcicle stick over the belt with no pressure applied to the belt just to keep it in place) and take off the tensioner, turn the pulley a "bit" to put in a tooth more slack in the belt, it should just slip right on. Then turn the cam back that tooth and put on the tensioner.

 

the tensioner pulley is "smooth" so it shouldn't be that much of a PITA

[Bigbusa]

(pax side cam seal didn't show ANY leakage, so left well enough alone).

 

 

I think you would have been better off spending the extra 15 mins and replacing this seal too. If that old one starts leaking you're going to have to take everything apart again just to replace that one seal.

 

Did you replace the 2 O-rings behind the camshaft covers?

[aircraft engineer]

Well... that's an interesting story.

 

I should have pulled the cap off the driver cam side when I had the seal out first (would have been easier to set the new seal in anyway) but I didn't.

 

When I decided to go back in and do it, I pulled the 3 attachment bolts for the cap but the cap didn't want to move, so I pried on it a bit from the back with a screwdriver and it moved "forward".

 

Trouble was that it seemed like it was moving the CAM with it (the seal was TIGHT and it didn't slide off the cam) so I carefully drew it back in with the bolts and left it as-is.

 

The pax side was dry so I didn't touch it (no evidence of leakage whatever) and didn't touch either of the rears at all.

 

yeah, I know - fix it now or fix it later. it's good for 100k now so it will do until "next time".

 

It would be "nice" to find someone who does bearings in water pumps so I could just have it rebuilt instead of buying a whole new replacement unit. There wasn't any evidence of leakage and with a water pump the ONLY part that wears is the bearing.

 

I probably should have used red to loctite the oil pump back plate - I used blue, so that's a possible minor point that might fail in the future - BTW - for those reading this - get a #3 phillips socket drive to do an "easier" job of loosening/tightening the oil pump plate screws. You can apply a LOT more torque with a socket than a screwdriver

 

Skip was pretty insistent about 125 on the crank bolt torque but the local shop I asked said the book SAYS 68-78 so 75 is OK (but they usually do 85 or so)

 

I just torqued everything to book specs. I COULD go back in and raise the torque on the crank bolt, but to do it I need to take the fans back out (not difficult, just an annoyance). Maybe in a few days after it's "settled in" and things might have "loosened" a bit I'll get to it.

[Bigbusa]

All the stuff you replaced is good for another 100k. I hope that old pax side seal is good for another 100k miles!

 

I didn't change the o-rings either. I didn't know where they went. :cool: I should have stopped the job and asked here but wanted to get her back together.

[lostinthe202]

I just torqued everything to book specs. I COULD go back in and raise the torque on the crank bolt, but to do it I need to take the fans back out (not difficult, just an annoyance). Maybe in a few days after it's "settled in" and things might have "loosened" a bit I'll get to it.

 

 

I just did this same job to my car. For the life of me I couldn't get the all the three belt marks, cam pulley marks, crank marks, and the marks on the covers to line up before taking the belt off, something was ALWAYS out. So I went on the "ran fine before/will run fine after" theory and made sure to put the new belt on the same way the old one came off. Anyway, the point of this story is to say that I put the cooling system back together so I could start the car and make sure it ran OK, I did this with pulley on only as tight as I could get it with compression resistance, then torqued it down afterwards. I don't recall having any space issues with the Rad fans in place.

 

My deux franc

 

Will-

[EvilDead]

All the stuff you replaced is good for another 100k. I hope that old pax side seal is good for another 100k miles!

 

I didn't change the o-rings either. I didn't know where they went. :cool: I should have stopped the job and asked here but wanted to get her back together.

 

I was the in the same situation with the o-rings. Let's hope they hold!!

[Gloyale]

 

Skip was pretty insistent about 125 on the crank bolt torque but the local shop I asked said the book SAYS 68-78 so 75 is OK (but they usually do 85 or so)

 

I just torqued everything to book specs. I COULD go back in and raise the torque on the crank bolt, but to do it I need to take the fans back out (not difficult, just an annoyance). Maybe in a few days after it's "settled in" and things might have "loosened" a bit I'll get to it.

 

 

You can get in there with a 22mm socket and a breaker bar with the fans in place. Don't need a torque wrench, you're just going tighter than what it is now.

[aircraft engineer]

Oh, taking out the fans is a snap (2 electrical clips and 6 bolts, 1 hose clamp) maybe 10 minutes plus the same to put it all back. I might even be able to do it from under on the ramps (I guess another tug on the breaker won't hurt)

 

Lost - for replacing the belt you don't need to have them exactly "on mark" - just "close enough" so you don't have to rotate the system a whole lot. I found that with the crank pulley off I could put 2 allens into the round holes in the crankshaft cogged belt drive, stick a long handled box end wrench over them and turn the engine that way to align the marks. Then since I was tossing the old belt anyway, hold the cogged drive steady and untorque both of the cam sprocket bolts (the 14mm crowfoot wrench idea mentioned elsewhere to hold the sprocket came to me later - besides, it stops any possibility of belt damage)

 

When you INSTALL the NEW BELT you need to have them "exact".

 

I'm thinking that the trick of holding the belt onto the drivers side cam sprocket with a tiny c clamp and a popcicle stick to protect the belt seems like a time saver (it won't change "belt position" at that point - it can't it's "locked" to the belt/pulley with that clamp).

 

The pax side seems to be OK where it is and didn't want to move - the driver side is a bit touchier but not impossible to hold steady. I found that by looking down on the notch in the backside of the timing belt cover and using it as a sight, I could tell pretty well exactly where I was compared to where I wanted it to be (and this one lined up exactly anyway)

 

I'm not going to go out and pull it apart to check the theory of taking the tensioner back out and then moving the driver pulley about a notch clockwise to get a bit of slack into the belt and enable easier cogged idler pulley installation, but it seems reasonable.

[idosubaru]

Skip was pretty insistent about 125 on the crank bolt torque

they do come loose and cause very bad things to happen if they fall off. i don't even use my torque wrench on mine, i get it as tight as i can, real tight. i know i'm way over the spec's but it's iron not aluminum like most other bolts in there.

 

lostinthe202 - there's no need to get the old belt marks lined up before you pull it - they'll only line up every so many revolutions - someone calculated it once, it's A LOT. but there's no need to.

[porcupine73]

[lostinthe202]

Ah, well... thanks fellas. I'll def. remember that in 60k when it's time to do that dance again.

 

So just to clarify, you don't have to line the marks up EXACTLY to take the belt off, but you do want to be close as opposed to taking the belt off wherever it happens to be when you last shut off the engine. The reason being it would be possible to have one cam or the other out by 180 degrees if you lined things up with every thing free?

 

When I did this job, I didn't have a manual (all I have is chiltons and it's for like 20 different models of subaru and from what I've read contains errors) all I had was the printout of the endwrench article on doing the 2.2 belt and various other notes from things I've learned from you fine people. It seemed pretty straight forward. The first few attempts getting the belt back on was a royal PIA as the driver's side cam was under valve spring tension and kept snapping shut one way or the other (hooray non-interferance:clap: ). I then went back and read the re-assembly instructions more completely and noticed that they had an order in which your supposed to put the idler and tensioner pulleys back on. I followed those and it was done in a snap. For good measure I counted the teeth as mentioned in the endwrench article and the left side came out to the number, but the right side seemed to be a tooth off. BUT, it did match the orientation of the old belt, so I went with it figuring it ran fine that way before.

 

Anyway, thanks for the info!

 

Will-

[idosubaru]

So just to clarify, you don't have to line the marks up EXACTLY to take the belt off,

ignore the old belt marks, half the time they're warn off or not there at all. older generation subaru's never came with belt marks, it's just an added check and not something that's necessary. even some new belts don't have the marks.

 

the cam/crank marks are all that matter. line those up and remove the belt that way everything is just about where it's supposed to be, if one snaps (and it probably will), just move it back to where it was. line up all the marks (cam, crank, NEW belt) and you're golden.

 

you said yours isn't interference? i guess yours is a pre 97 2.2 since all 2.5's are.

[OB99W]

[...]For good measure I counted the teeth as mentioned in the endwrench article and the left side came out to the number, but the right side seemed to be a tooth off. BUT, it did match the orientation of the old belt, so I went with it figuring it ran fine that way before.

Given a properly-manufactured timing belt (one would expect an OEM one to be that), the tooth count should be what the EndWrench article indicates. Manufacturing tolerances could account for up to a half-tooth discrepancy, but any more than that means the belt was put on wrong. As an example, let's say the count is off by nearly one full tooth -- call it 3/4 of one. By remounting the belt, you could be off by only 1/4 tooth (but in the direction opposite that of previously), reducing the error by 1/2 tooth.

 

Under any circumstance, it's vital that the cam and crank sprocket marks are simultaneously aligned correctly, whether or not they agree with marks on the belt. Being sufficiently off on interference engines can be destructive, but being somewhat off on even non-interference engines will affect performance.

[aircraft engineer]

With the crankshaft pointer "up", the cam pointers are either "up" or they're down.

 

If they are "down", rotate the engine 1 full turn before removing the belt (how you turn it is up to you - I just used 2 allens in the round holes and a big box end wrench).

 

The "ratio" is 2:1 (crank turns 2 turns for each 1 turn of the cam - has to be that way, no other possibility) The 2:1 ratio is basic to the 4 stroke engine and is why on "geared" camshafts the cam gear is exactly twice the diameter of the crank gear. This is just driven by a belt - the ratios are identical

 

The cam pointers MUST line up when the crank pointer is at "top" (either they are "up" or they are "down" - 180 degrees out - but they MUST line up or you are way, way out of time)

 

Try my popsicle stick (tongue depressor) and small (1 inch) C clamp idea next time to hold the belt to the sprocket alignment. The belt cogs will stop the belt from sliding.

 

with the marks on the belt aligned to the notches (more precisely, the MARKS ON THE SPROCKETS) it CANNOT be out - assuming it's put on with the direction of rotation correct. any possible error in the new belt will be a maximum FULL tooth (because you CANNOT have a 1/2 tooth error on a cogged belt - it's always a whole tooth one place or the other) That count of 40.5 teeth is because the difference between the pax side sprocket mark and the crank marker is a "crest to crest" and from the crank marker to the driver sprocket mark is a "crest to valley" (which is 1/2 "tooth")

 

BTW - Chilton's is better than NOTHING, but not a whole lot. They try to cover every possible combination of engine out there and only give 1/2 the info necessary to do the entire job. I got a lot more out of the "end wrench" articles than Chilton ever showed. About the only thing Chilton was good for was torques (and then based on the "low" torque they gave for the crank bolt, not even that good either)

[lostinthe202]

Given a properly-manufactured timing belt (one would expect an OEM one to be that), the tooth count should be what the EndWrench article indicates. Manufacturing tolerances could account for up to a half-tooth discrepancy, but any more than that means the belt was put on wrong. As an example, let's say the count is off by nearly one full tooth -- call it 3/4 of one. By remounting the belt, you could be off by only 1/4 tooth (but in the direction opposite that of previously), reducing the error by 1/2 tooth.

 

Under any circumstance, it's vital that the cam and crank sprocket marks are simultaneously aligned correctly, whether or not they agree with marks on the belt. Being sufficiently off on interference engines can be destructive, but being somewhat off on even non-interference engines will affect performance.

 

 

I did get an OEM belt and thus a bit disappointed that the marks/teeth didn't add up. But we all seem to be saying the same this, which is that if you can get the belt on and all three pulley marks are at 12:00, then you're good to go.

[soobyfan]

I just completed a t-belt change on a '96 OBW 2.2L, I has similar results:

 

I also used the pulley set from TheImportExperts, but I did not trust the tbelt, I bought an OEM belt.

 

Before I took the old belt off I very carefully noted the position of the marks on the cam pulleys and the driveshaft sprocket and the reference marks on the belt. The driveshaft sprocket was 1/2 tooth off. (this was a Contitech belt). When I installed the new OEM belt (Unitta) it lines up much better. I have read quite a few reports of people having trouble getting everything to line up perfectly.

 

I had no trouble at all getting the bolt off the belt pulley, I have a 5sp, so I put it in gear and put on the hand brake, sprayed it with penetrant, and it came right off. (1/2 in breaker bar and pipe extender helps a lot). I torqued it to 120 ft/lbs when reassembling, no reason to take chances with something that can cause so much trouble.

 

I also replaced the radiator hoses, water pump bypass hose, t-stat, radiator cap, water pump, cam oil seals, main oil seals, rocker cover gaskets.

[OB99W]

[...] any possible error in the new belt will be a maximum FULL tooth (because you CANNOT have a 1/2 tooth error on a cogged belt - it's always a whole tooth one place or the other) That count of 40.5 teeth is because the difference between the pax side sprocket mark and the crank marker is a "crest to crest" and from the crank marker to the driver sprocket mark is a "crest to valley" (which is 1/2 "tooth")[...]

Of course the belt teeth can only engage the sprockets at "full tooth" intervals. However, that doesn't prevent the belt from being installed improperly if the sprocket marks aren't "eyeballed" correctly; that's one reason the tooth count is given. In addition, excessive play in the upper idlers/tensioner can also allow for a partial-tooth error in count versus that in the EndWrench info, possibly revealing those problems.

 

 

I did get an OEM belt and thus a bit disappointed that the marks/teeth didn't add up. But we all seem to be saying the same this, which is that if you can get the belt on and all three pulley marks are at 12:00, then you're good to go.

Yes, in the end proper timing is what's important. However, if all is right the lines on the belt should match with the sprockets, and there shouldn't be a full-tooth count discrepancy with that in the EndWrench article.

 

 

I just completed a t-belt change on a '96 OBW 2.2L, I has similar results:

 

[...]I have read quite a few reports of people having trouble getting everything to line up perfectly.

They rarely line up "perfectly", but any substantial error would concern me.